Theories About the Existence of High Grade Vintage

[1880nonsports]

Thanks

[xplainer]

This thread came to mind today.

I decided to upgrade my 1914 Polo Grounds Jimmy Lavender (laughter starts) for my PC, so I went to ebay looking. I was able to get a PSA 8 for under $50 delivered. I thought, a PSA 8 from 1914, of a player no one cares about? How did it survive all these years in that condition?
I've submitted modern cards I've pulled from packs that didn't get that.

I don't know really, but I am interested in reading the thoughts in this thread. Very interesting.

I know I am the xplainer, but I pass on this one.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by xplainer

This thread came to mind today.

I decided to upgrade my 1914 Polo Grounds Jimmy Lavender (laughter starts) for my PC, so I went to ebay looking. I was able to get a PSA 8 for under $50 delivered. I thought, a PSA 8 from 1914, of a player no one cares about? How did it survive all these years in that condition?
I've submitted modern cards I've pulled from packs that didn't get that.

I don't know really, but I am interested in reading the thoughts in this thread. Very interesting.

I know I am the xplainer, but I pass on this one.

It's a bit easier to survive when you don't have corners.

[brass_rat]

I'd like to echo others in saying thank you to those that have contributed to this thread, particularly jsq and David for their lengthy and interesting stories. I've really enjoyed reading all of this.

Cheers,
Steve

[glchen]

Originally Posted by brass_rat

I'd like to echo others in saying thank you to those that have contributed to this thread, particularly jsq and David for their lengthy and interesting stories. I've really enjoyed reading all of this.

Cheers,
Steve

+1!

[xplainer]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It's a bit easier to survive when you don't have corners.

Still.

[brianp-beme]

A couple of thoughts about the Polo Grounds card. As Peter mentioned previously a good reason why there are so many high grade ones around is that this set was issued with rounded corners, and thus severely minimizing the possibility of corner damage.

Secondly these cards were not issued with product (minimizing the possibility of damage), but instead came as part of a deck. I imagine there were plenty of decks that were barely or not even touched, and those cards remained well protected within their pack through the decades.

Brian

Originally Posted by xplainer

This thread came to mind today.

I decided to upgrade my 1914 Polo Grounds Jimmy Lavender (laughter starts) for my PC, so I went to ebay looking. I was able to get a PSA 8 for under $50 delivered. I thought, a PSA 8 from 1914, of a player no one cares about? How did it survive all these years in that condition?
I've submitted modern cards I've pulled from packs that didn't get that.

I don't know really, but I am interested in reading the thoughts in this thread. Very interesting.

I know I am the xplainer, but I pass on this one.

[Jay Wolt]

Brian is correct on the game cards. I'll also add that many of the game issues have a more durable card stock
as they were meant to be handled & shuffled.

Here's a 132 year old mint Lawson's game card as example

[Stampsfan]

To JSQ and to all who contributed to this and took the time to share their knowledge and memories. This is a wonderful forum, and the reason is obvious in this thread.

[mybuddyinc]

Yes, great stories and history, very informative .........

This thread almost makes you want to take out a "buying old cards" ad in your local newspaper

[xplainer]

Originally Posted by Jay Wolt

Brian is correct on the game cards. I'll also add that many of the game issues have a more durable card stock
as they were meant to be handled & shuffled.

Here's a 132 year old mint Lawson's game card as example

Alright, I get the point.

[trdcrdkid]

I went through my Sports Collectors Digests and found this article in the January 31, 1976 issue, reprinted from the Bridgeport (Connecticut) Post. It's about card collector (and dealer, and SCD columnist) George Lyons and the hotel buying trips he regularly took with his wife and kids, the type of trip described by jsq earlier in this thread. I thought people might find this contemporary, first-hand account interesting. Based on my quick googling, it appears that Lyons is no longer with us, but I think Rob Lifson knew him back then when they were both dealers.

[ullmandds]

What is this "" other Wagner pose that they discussed in this article ??

[conor912]

Originally Posted by trdcrdkid

I went through my Sports Collectors Digests and found this article in the January 31, 1976 issue, reprinted from the Bridgeport (Connecticut) Post. It's about card collector (and dealer, and SCD columnist) George Lyons and the hotel buying trips he regularly took with his wife and kids, the type of trip described by jsq earlier in this thread. I thought people might find this contemporary, first-hand account interesting. Based on my quick googling, it appears that Lyons is no longer with us, but I think Rob Lifson knew him back then when they were both dealers.

"Gum card collecting is third only to coin and stamp collecting". Boy have times changed.

[jsq]

in the upper right corner of the this hotel buying trip article it is hard to read but i think an interesting comment is made that puts the hobby in perspective.
i will paraphrase since i cannot copy paste from the photo of the article:

people called the hotel george was set up at where george was buying cards. most of the calls were about recent cards (this article is 1976). too many of those were minted and the distribution of those recent cards was excellent so they are not worth messing with. he usually only buys pre 1957.

once again this highlights the thought process of many collectors of that era. the prior times the hobby had grown at GLACIAL speeds and cards of the 60's were just to common to ever be worth anything.

after all, how would new collectors even enter the hobby?? was the thought process as their were no old cards in quantity for sale. george lyons was fairly new to the hobby but had excellent contacts within the hobby and also wrote a column for sports collectors digest. as an aside georges father was a very famous writer for a new york paper and as a child george had many famous people over to his fathers house and went out to eat with them, ie famous sports, radio, theatre, and movie personalities etc.

the hobby that collectors have known since the early 80's and even maybe the late 70's is nothing like pre 1975. until the cards flooded into the hobby with the hotel buying trips the inventory available for sale just did not encourage new collectors to jump in. their was no room for new collectors except in that most recent 15 or so years worth of cards which were shunned by advanced collectors. ie 1960 - 1975 era cards. and advanced collectors did not respect those sets other then to have 1 in their collection as a bb fan not so much as a collector.

you could have the biggest wallet in the room and it meant nothing pre 1973 because very few collectors would SELL their few duplicates and few had many duplicates except for the most recent 15 or so years and the most recent 1960 - 1974 cards were perceived as somewhat common and never going anywhere in price so why bother with a duplicate set of 1960 - 1974. collectors horded their pre 1960 cards in order to trade with others because you could not get most advanced collectors to sell their pre 1960 cards they would only trade.

THIS CAUSED A SORT OF HOBBY GRIDLOCK.

as i mentioned in an earlier post you could not always easily sell old stuff because no money was in the hobby at many of the very few shows that existed. and as just mentioned above you could not buy because the better stuff, in general the collectors would not part with. these seemingly two completely opposite statements reflected the GRIDLOCK OF THE HOBBY PRIOR TO THE HOTEL BUYING TRIPS UNLEASHING SO MUCH QUALITY STUFF. it was a weird moment in time to say the least. today where you just go to ebay or an auction house and write a check. it is difficult to explain and i am not trying to be confusing just trying to convey some of the issues of the era.

once again, based on the collecting experience of the 1940's, 50,s and 60's hoarding and using only for trade your duplicates of pre 1960 cards made perfect sense in 1973. these guys had scrounged for cards for decades and found no way to get what they sought. so if you showed up in 1974 and said i have a million dollars and i want to buy a bunch of cards the response was pretty much - so what, everyone wants to buy but their are few sellers of any quantity. not until the hotel buying trip concept evolved did excess quality card and quantity arrive.

and back to the original question. some kids were just orderly and neat all their lives and if their collections showed up at the hotel buying trip then the cards looked pack fresh so to speak. now a 1910 era pack fresh card may have a lot of printing/manufacturing problems preventing a high a grade but that is a different animal to a careless kid playing with his cards.

though collectors in the early and mid 70's did not focus much on condition other then if they had a few cards in their paw at the same moment they would obviously keep the better of the 2 or 3. as such their is much higher quality cards in old collections then is reflected in the registry by the fact that when these collections were assembled they were from original owners or original owners families for the most part in the pre 1976 era and the cards they did get to acquire their was no incentive to tamper with.

the different grades just did not mean that much once the card was what was called then excellent ie psa 6 vs screaming psa 10 of the current era just did not have much of a difference in price if any. virtually nobody cared.

more perspective, years ago when i personally had more cards of some sets in my hand at one time then exist on the total psa registry. that is no bs. the r314 cream colored canadian wide pen as they were known in the 70's. i bought 3 plus sets in 1974 from a walk in at the chicago show. their were 25 cards per set - feller, dimaggio, gehringer, etc and i had 3 complete sets plus some dupes about 80 - 90 or so cards. the psa site lists them as 1937 wide pens or some such thing, i do not recall exactly - it has been a while since i saw looked. the set i am talking about is the cream colored canadian issue not the much more common r 314 wide pens.

the r 314 cream colored canadian set was EXTREMELY desirable at that moment in time. virtually none of the advanced collectors had a complete set and they basically frothed over my find. it was far and away the largest find of that issue up to that time and likely ever. premiums were the rage for the advanced collectors. at the time much more desirable then the goudey cards which they all had complete sets of.

SO I PERSONALLY SOLD THESE CARDS TO HIGH END COLLECTORS AND THEIR ARE NOW FEWER SLABBED CARDS THEN I PERSONALLY SOLD THEN THAT GIVES SOME PERSPECTIVE OF WHAT LURKS IN OLD COLLECTIONS THAT HAVE NEVER BEEN SLABBED. each of the collectors i sold to were advanced. by 1974 it was becoming apparent that bb cards were worth $$ so their heirs would not have tosssed these collections in the trash and those collections will eventually end up in the hobby and then some really nice cards will be slabbed. also, you can be assured other collectors already had some of these r 314 cream colored canadians because i helped many people increase the number in their exisiting set and likewise you can be assured that more would likely have found their way into the hobby with the hotel buying trips. so their are lots more cards in the hobby then some suspect would be the correct conclusion and likewise some of these cards are in superb condition.

of the FEW collectors that did upgrade, MAJOR EMPHASIS ON FEW, those few constantly upgraded ie mike keasler, lionel carter and a handful of others. i personally held mike keaslers cards in my hands and he was a friend. likewise i personally held lionel carters cards in my hands and that was at the mastro auction house. lionel and i did not meet as best as i can recall other then his probably passing by my table at early and mid 70's chicago card shows. lionel is the collector i most admire (i have read about him and discussed him with other old time collectors) and i wish i had had brains enough to seek lionel out and talk to him and tell him how much i admire his approach to the hobby. i do own one of lionels cards which i bought at auction, as a way to honor him.

and since i held both collections (mike keaslers and lionel carters) in my hands i can assure you that mikes collection from a quality point of view was right up their with lionel's from 1933 forward. lionels collection was deeper into the e and t (mike was about 20 years younger then lionel and started about 20 years later if i was to guess) but mikes collection of e and t was no slouch in that area either. mike is long since passed. in the 90's mike sold A collection to mr mint. knowing mike i would not be surprised if that collection was his duplicate sets and what was sold was hailed as pretty special at that time, and like i said i would not be surprised if what was sold was primarily duplicate sets leaving the ultra primo to ??????

do i wish i had kept my cards instead of selling in the 70's? on some levels sure on other levels they served a purpose which was most fortuitous for me. so no worries and no regrets. besides i would have kept the wrong stuff. the big focus of the collectors who were advanced in that era were the regionals, the 1930's premium cards like r314, r 312 etc. the regionals and premiums were the truly rare stuff and still are from a known quantity in existence point of view, but rarity is not the key to price as we have all learned. desirability is. their are way more 1938 goudey heads up of dimaggio then their are of the r 314 dimaggio but which sells for more today the rarer (in terms of known qty) r314 or the much more common goudey heads up of dimaggio? perspective is everything and what made perfect sense at one moment of time does not necessarily seem logical or can even be called stupid by those who were not in the shoes of that era making the real time decision.

some of the major collectors who did reguarly buy from me would be stan mcclure, dick ruess, frank schluetter - frank likely had more babe ruth cards then anyone ever other then goudey mfg he bought everything from 1933 - 48 with ruth on it, he had hundreds of them, don steinbach, beginner roger marth who developed into a major collector before selling to mr mint, occasionally dwight chapin, mike keasler, rich egan. the above were all extreme heavy weights in the early and mid 70's and numerous others that i have long since forgotten their names.


some perspective on the lack of respect for condition and grading, i think it was MAJOR MAJOR collector buck barker?? who used to put his initials or some such thing on the back of all of his cards!!! even the ones he was using as trade bait. and this was into the 60's and maybe the 70's.

perspective is all clear with "time".

the hotel buying trips and the cascade of QUALITY HIGH GRADE OLDER cards saved from the trash heap changed the world for the hobby.

best of collecting,
jsq

Originally Posted by trdcrdkid

I went through my Sports Collectors Digests and found this article in the January 31, 1976 issue, reprinted from the Bridgeport (Connecticut) Post. It's about card collector (and dealer, and SCD columnist) George Lyons and the hotel buying trips he regularly took with his wife and kids, the type of trip described by jsq earlier in this thread. I thought people might find this contemporary, first-hand account interesting. Based on my quick googling, it appears that Lyons is no longer with us, but I think Rob Lifson knew him back then when they were both dealers.

[jsq]

yes i want to publicly thank some specific very generous members of the board (i already thanked them in private):

some for helping me hunt up some of my old advertisements from 73 - 77 era from trader speaks and sports collectors digest. a really big shout out of thanks to trdcrdkid who took the time to go through MANY old issues of scd and sent me copies of my old adverts and related dates. my wife is building a scrap book and these are a nice addition to travel down memory lane.

also thanks to the other board members who looked through their runs of various hobby pubs. we covered many of the issues from that time.

also a big shout out of thanks to TCMA who metioned he had a bunch of old auction catalogs he wanted to get rid of and as a result i replaced the ones i had donated and or tossed a few years back when i moved.

this board has been most friendly and generous and i am happy to try to repay the kindness they have shown me.

all the best,
jsq