HOF results

[packs]

I'm talking about average second basemen. They're everywhere. Maybe Bobby Grich was a little better, but nothing sets him apart from the plethora of guys like him. Decent stats, above average, but not the all time hitter Kent was.

Name another second basemen who could hit like Kent. You can't.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by packs

I'm talking about average second basemen. They're everywhere. Maybe Bobby Grich was a little better, but nothing sets him apart from the plethora of guys like him.

Name another second basemen who could hit like Kent. You can't.

I just did. Bobby Grich was a better hitter than Jeff Kent.

He was also a better hitter than Ryne Sandberg and Roberto Alomar. And Frankie Frisch.

Tom C

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

I just did. Bobby Grich was a better hitter than Jeff Kent.

He was also a better hitter than Ryne Sandberg and Roberto Alomar. And Frankie Frisch.

Tom C

Tom there are none so blind as those who cannot see, eh?

[cardsfan73]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

I just did. Bobby Grich was a better hitter than Jeff Kent.

He was also a better hitter than Ryne Sandberg and Roberto Alomar. And Frankie Frisch.

Tom C

I am curious how Grich would be considered a better hitter than those three.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by cardsfan73

I am curious how Grich would be considered a better hitter than those three.

Career WAR

Bobby Grich 70.9
Frankie Frisch 70.4
Ryne Sandberg 67.5
Roberto Alomar 66.8

Career OPS+

Bobby Grich 125
Roberto Alomar 116
Ryne Sandberg 114
Frankie Frisch 110

Offensive Runs Above Average Career

Roberto Alomar 272.5
Bobby Grich 254.5
Frankie Frisch 223.9
Ryne Sandberg 178.5

wRC+ Career (100 is league average...this stat is both league and park adjusted similar io OPS+)

Bobby Grich 129
Roberto Alomar 118
Ryne Sandberg 115
Frankie Frisch 112

Runs Above Replacement Career (Frisch greatly aided here by career longevity versus the others on this list)

Frankie Frisch 769.8
Bobby Grich 648.1
Roberto Alomar 638.3
Ryne Sandberg 582.3



That's why.

I could keep going.

Tom C

[Rickyy]

Was surprised and kind of sad to see Jim Edmonds dropped off after one year...I think he got lost in the shuffle...one of the better outfielders in during his time....

Ricky Y

[ALR-bishop]

[btcarfagno]

That mustache alone is Hall Of Fame worthy.

Tom C

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

I'm talking about average second basemen. They're everywhere. Maybe Bobby Grich was a little better, but nothing sets him apart from the plethora of guys like him. Decent stats, above average, but not the all time hitter Kent was.

Name another second basemen who could hit like Kent. You can't.

Hornsby, Lajoie, Collins, Morgan, Robinson, Alomar, Biggio, Gehringer, Carew, Grich, Sandberg, Utley, Frisch.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Hornsby, Lajoie, Collins, Morgan, Robinson, Alomar, Biggio, Gehringer, Carew, Grich, Sandberg, Utley, Frisch.

I would add Cano as well.

Tom C

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

I would add Cano as well.

Tom C

Whitaker maybe as well.

[packs]

I'm not going to quote JAWS but I don't remember any of them driving in 100 runs six years in a row. I'm also not going to compare people like Hornsby, Lajoie and Eddie Collins to Jeff Kent. Clearly we are talking about the modern era and the modern game.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by packs

I'm not going to quote JAWS but I don't remember any of them driving in 100 runs six years in a row. I'm also not going to compare Lajoie and Eddie Collins to Jeff Kent.

Why not? They are second basemen. You said no second baseman ever hit like Jeff Kent. They are relevant.

As to driving in x amount of runs x years in a row...first off RBI is a stat that requires the performance of other players (to be on base). It is one of the most flawed measurable stats out there when used to compare one player from one team against another from another team in a different situation (let alone from different eras). Secondly, again, 100 RBI during Kent's playing career meant far less than it did at other times. Scoring was sky high league wide. 100 RBI in 2004 might have meant the same as 75 or 80 in 1975.

Tom C

[packs]

So you think it's apt to compare say Cy Young to Pedro Martinez?

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by packs

So you think it's apt to compare say Cy Young to Pedro Martinez?

Not in terms.of raw numbers as you are doing. But in terms of Youngs performance versus a league average pitcher of his time and Martinez performance versus a league average pitcher of his time, absolutely.

How much better than an average pitcher of his day was each one? That is quantifiable and thus each can be compared based on that.

Tom C

[packs]

Whatever you say. I think players like Morgan and Carew were better pure hitters and for a longer amount of time, but they couldn't do what Kent did with the bat. Only Jeff Kent could and to an extent Sandberg. And with 3 decades between debuts, I think that says something about the special player Kent was considering there's no one on your list in between.

[glchen]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Hornsby, Lajoie, Collins, Morgan, Robinson, Alomar, Biggio, Gehringer, Carew, Grich, Sandberg, Utley, Frisch.

I really think there is an eye test that is being missed here. What we do know is that Kent moved to Astros in 2003, and joined Biggio there. However, Kent is the player who stayed at 2nd base, and Biggio moved to the outfield. If Biggio were the better player at 2nd, wouldn't the team have kept him at 2nd and moved Kent to the OF?

I really think it's pointless to continue to argue this because I'm pretty confident that Kent will eventually make the HOF even if it is via the Veteran's Committee (unless of course, he is implicated for using PEDs). Every other player who leads his position (excluding pitchers) in home runs all time is in the Hall of Fame (taking out PED users). He's obviously not a first ballot HOFer, and he doesn't have the 3000 hit credentials like Biggio. However, he is someone like a Gary Carter who will get in eventually.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by glchen

I really think there is an eye test that is being missed here. What we do know is that Kent moved to Astros in 2003, and joined Biggio there. However, Kent is the player who stayed at 2nd base, and Biggio moved to the outfield. If Biggio were the better player at 2nd, wouldn't the team have kept him at 2nd and moved Kent to the OF?

I really think it's pointless to continue to argue this because I'm pretty confident that Kent will eventually make the HOF even if it is via the Veteran's Committee (unless of course, he is implicated for using PEDs). Every other player who leads his position (excluding pitchers) in home runs all time is in the Hall of Fame (taking out PED users). He's obviously not a first ballot HOFer, and he doesn't have the 3000 hit credentials like Biggio. However, he is someone like a Gary Carter who will get in eventually.

What does moving Biggio to the outfield have to do with whether he or Kent was the better hitter? Or maybe Biggio was more adaptable and Kent couldn't play outfield?

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What does moving Biggio to the outfield have to do with whether he or Kent was the better hitter? Or maybe Biggio was more adaptable and Kent couldn't play outfield?

Well said Peter. Jeff Kent couldn't run down a beach ball in the outfield, let alone a batted baseball!

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by glchen

I really think there is an eye test that is being missed here. What we do know is that Kent moved to Astros in 2003, and joined Biggio there. However, Kent is the player who stayed at 2nd base, and Biggio moved to the outfield. If Biggio were the better player at 2nd, wouldn't the team have kept him at 2nd and moved Kent to the OF?

I really think it's pointless to continue to argue this because I'm pretty confident that Kent will eventually make the HOF even if it is via the Veteran's Committee (unless of course, he is implicated for using PEDs). Every other player who leads his position (excluding pitchers) in home runs all time is in the Hall of Fame (taking out PED users). He's obviously not a first ballot HOFer, and he doesn't have the 3000 hit credentials like Biggio. However, he is someone like a Gary Carter who will get in eventually.

I agree he will eventually get in barring some PED issue real or imagined keeping him out.

But Biggio went to center field because he was a good enough athlete to move there. He was also a good enough athlete to have started his career as a catcher. Jeff Kent in Center field?

Oh. My. Freaking. Goodness. No.

No.

Tom C

[glchen]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

What does moving Biggio to the outfield have to do with whether he or Kent was the better hitter? Or maybe Biggio was more adaptable and Kent couldn't play outfield?

Peter, please just read your comments again. Seriously, if that doesn't get through, how about Kent had a higher WAR than Biggio those two years that both played for the Astros? Would that prove to you that Kent was the better hitter then during those years?

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

I agree he will eventually get in barring some PED issue real or imagined keeping him out.

But Biggio went to center field because he was a good enough athlete to move there. He was also a good enough athlete to have started his career as a catcher. Jeff Kent in Center field?

Oh. My. Freaking. Goodness. No.

No.

Tom C

Tom, Biggio had a negative defensive WAR during those 2003 and 2004 when he played OF when Kent was there. In fact, Biggio's career defensive WAR is -3.9 while Kent's career defensive WAR is -0.9. Therefore, just maybe Kent was the better athlete.

[btcarfagno]

Regarding Bernie Williams and "clutch", Fangraphs has a stat called...well...clutch. It measures a players stats in such " clutch" situations versus his stats overall. Someone with better stats in the clutch situations will have a positive "clutch" value. Generally a number greater than zero but less than two. So conversely, a negative number means that person did worse than their normal in clutch situations.

Bernie Williams clutch number is -.99.

Tom C

[packs]

Does this clutch factor into playoff games or only regular season?

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by packs

Does this clutch factor into playoff games or only regular season?

Only regular season. Doing just playoff games would be too small of a sample size to be meaningful.

Tom C

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

regarding bernie williams and "clutch", fangraphs has a stat called...well...clutch. It measures a players stats in such " clutch" situations versus his stats overall. Someone with better stats in the clutch situations will have a positive "clutch" value. Generally a number greater than zero but less than two. So conversely, a negative number means that person did worse than their normal in clutch situations.

Bernie williams clutch number is -.99.

Tom c

lol.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by glchen

I really think there is an eye test that is being missed here. What we do know is that Kent moved to Astros in 2003, and joined Biggio there. However, Kent is the player who stayed at 2nd base, and Biggio moved to the outfield. If Biggio were the better player at 2nd, wouldn't the team have kept him at 2nd and moved Kent to the OF?

ARod was a vastly superior shortstop in comparison to Jeter. Who ended up moving?

[glchen]

Originally Posted by Tabe

ARod was a vastly superior shortstop in comparison to Jeter. Who ended up moving?

The story there was that since ARod was going to the Yanks, he would move to a new position. If it had been Jeter going to the Rangers, then ARod would have stayed at shortstop and Jeter would move to a new position. This was what both Jeter and ARod told the media at that time, I believe.

In the Kent/Biggio case, Kent moved to the Astros, but it was still the incumbent Biggio who ended up moving positions. Hmmmm.....

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by glchen

The story there was that since ARod was going to the Yanks, he would move to a new position. If it had been Jeter going to the Rangers, then ARod would have stayed at shortstop and Jeter would move to a new position. This was what both Jeter and ARod told the media at that time, I believe.

In the Kent/Biggio case, Kent moved to the Astros, but it was still the incumbent Biggio who ended up moving positions. Hmmmm.....

Jeff Kent had less range at second than the McCovey statue. I would pay good money go see him try to play center field.

Tom C

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by packs

I'm talking about average second basemen. They're everywhere. Maybe Bobby Grich was a little better, but nothing sets him apart from the plethora of guys like him. Decent stats, above average, but not the all time hitter Kent was.

Name another second basemen who could hit like Kent. You can't.

Peak value for a 4/5 year period, Joe Morgan was a better hitter than Kent...case closed. Historically speaking, Hornsby, Lajoie and Collins are all better pure hitters, with Hornsby arguably the greatest right handed hitter ever along with Aaron and Foxx.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Vintageclout

Peak value for a 4/5 year period, Joe Morgan was a better hitter than Kent...case closed. Historically speaking, Hornsby, Lajoie and Collins are all better pure hitters, with Hornsby arguably the greatest right handed hitter ever along with Aaron and Foxx.

Then there's a guy named Carew who won 6 batting titles in 7 years.

[CMIZ5290]

Why in the World do we keep talking about Jeff Kent? What am I missing?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Why in the World do we keep talking about Jeff Kent? What am I missing?

Because he's an obvious HOFer, the best hitting second baseman of the modern era, who has been shafted by the voters.

[ejharrington]

In my opinion, Jeff Kent should be in the HOF. Bobby Grich should not be. Kent was considered elite during his peak years. I don't recall Grich being perceived the same way.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ejharrington

In my opinion, Jeff Kent should be in the HOF. Bobby Grich should not be. Kent was considered elite during his peak years. I don't recall Grich being perceived the same way.

Kent made five all star teams, Grich six.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Good article on Kent and his HOF case.

http://www.si.com/mlb/2014/12/16/jaw...llot-jeff-kent

[ejharrington]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Kent made five all star teams, Grich six.

I know, but Kent won the MVP and seemed to me more dominant than Grich in his prime.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ejharrington

I know, but Kent won the MVP and seemed to me more dominant than Grich in his prime.

Turning to peak WAR, covering his best seven seasons, Kent's 35.6 ranks 25th, about nine wins behind the average Hall of Fame second baseman and below 13 of the 19 enshrined. Kent is hurt on both WAR fronts because he had just three seasons of at least 5.0 WAR, all of them from 1999 to 2001, and two more seasons of at least 4.0 WAR. By comparison, Morgan had 10 seasons of at least 5.0 WAR. Alomar, Cano, Grich, Sandberg and Utley had six apiece, and Biggio, Rod Carew and Dustin Pedroia recorded five. Even at the 4.0 WAR bar, 11 post-expansion second basemen had more big seasons.

In the end, Kent's 45.4 JAWS is 12.6 points below the Hall standard for second basemen, 18th all-time but below 11 of the 19 Hall of Famers, and too far to be made up by the parts of his resumé that the system doesn't capture, mainly the awards and the postseason (a characteristic .276/.340/.500 with nine homers in 189 PA). Outside of his 2000 MVP award, his highest finish was sixth, and he made just five All-Star teams. He scores 122 ("a good possibility") on the Bill James Hall of Fame Monitor, but the average score for a Hall of Fame second baseman is 161.

[UnVme7]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Kent made five all star teams, Grich six.

I take All Star appearances with a grain of salt in all sports where fans vote.

Example- Adrian Beltre(who I believe will be a HOF'er btw), hit 48 HR's with a .330 BA in 2004, second in MVP behind Bonds and didn't make an All Star appearance that year.

It looks good when you have them, but if you don't, I don't put into much consideration. I look more at the top 15 MVP each year.

[UnVme7]

Originally Posted by UnVme7

I take All Star appearances with a grain of salt in all sports where fans vote.

Example- Adrian Beltre(who I believe will be a HOF'er btw), hit 48 HR's with a .330 BA in 2004, second in MVP behind Bonds and didn't make an All Star appearance that year.

It looks good when you have them, but if you don't, I don't put into much consideration. I look more at the top 15 MVP each year.

Speaking of MVP-

Grich
MVP (yr lg (rk, shr))
1972 AL (14, 5%)
1973 AL (19, 3%)
1974 AL (9, 15%)
1979 AL (8, 15%)
1981 AL (14, 5%)
0.43 Career Shares (501st)

Kent
MVP (yr lg (rk, shr))
1997 NL (8, 20%)
1998 NL (9, 12%)
1999 NL (26, 0%)
2000 NL (1, 88%)
2002 NL (6, 30%)
2004 NL (13, 4%)
2005 NL (19, 4%)
1 MVP
1.58 Career Shares (145th)