how long will vintage cards physically last?

[Buythatcard]

Will the accepted preservation methods in a 150 years from now pass the grading standards? Would it receive a qualifier of Preserved?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Buythatcard

Will the accepted preservation methods in a 150 years from now pass the grading standards? Would it receive a qualifier of Preserved?

I dont know but im sure Ted Williams will be the only HOFer from the 1950s available to sign autographs 300 years from now when he is thawed.....I am not sure how his autograph will look...too bad he is not in the t206 set though..

[DaveW]

Since there are no cards left of the Egyptian pharaohs, I'd say that a few thousand years is the max.

[steve B]

It really depends on the paper they're printed on.

T206s may be printed on a cardstock with a high rag content. In other words, it may be more flax, cotton and wool that wood pulp. Rag paper tends to be low in acid and very long lasting. Rag paper was common in the mid 1800's and before, and has been used pretty much constantly. (US currency has a high rag content. )
There's some stuff out there that's 500 years+ and the paper is still supple and not yellowed.

On the opposite end of things, Most of the strip card sets from the 1920's were printed on very cheap cardstock made entirely of wood pulp with nothing to even slow the acidity.
I don't expect that much will be left of them in another 100 years without some sort of intervening preservation - Deacidification is possible, but so far I don't know of anyone doing it to cards.

Oddly I'm of the opinion that encapsulation will make the problem worse. A card that's essentially loose can shed some acid to the atmosphere, an encapsulated card will be contained in an increasingly acidic environment.

Proper storage can help, as can totally insane storage. The proper stuff can be gotten close to in most home environments. I think serious archives try for 40F and 40% humidity. A modern air conditioned home is close enough for most things, maybe a bit too hot and a bit too dry, but not terrible.

The crazy stuff is things like serious climate controls and using inert or nearly inert gasses. In some cases that can extend the expected life well beyond what's normal. But that's expensive I only know of a handful of items stored that way. All of them are on public display in DC and should be very familiar to all of out US members. (I'm sure there are a few similar things in other countries.)

Steve B

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by steve B

It really depends on the paper they're printed on.

T206s may be printed on a cardstock with a high rag content. In other words, it may be more flax, cotton and wool that wood pulp. Rag paper tends to be low in acid and very long lasting. Rag paper was common in the mid 1800's and before, and has been used pretty much constantly. (US currency has a high rag content. )
There's some stuff out there that's 500 years+ and the paper is still supple and not yellowed.

On the opposite end of things, Most of the strip card sets from the 1920's were printed on very cheap cardstock made entirely of wood pulp with nothing to even slow the acidity.
I don't expect that much will be left of them in another 100 years without some sort of intervening preservation - Deacidification is possible, but so far I don't know of anyone doing it to cards.

Oddly I'm of the opinion that encapsulation will make the problem worse. A card that's essentially loose can shed some acid to the atmosphere, an encapsulated card will be contained in an increasingly acidic environment.

Proper storage can help, as can totally insane storage. The proper stuff can be gotten close to in most home environments. I think serious archives try for 40F and 40% humidity. A modern air conditioned home is close enough for most things, maybe a bit too hot and a bit too dry, but not terrible.

The crazy stuff is things like serious climate controls and using inert or nearly inert gasses. In some cases that can extend the expected life well beyond what's normal. But that's expensive I only know of a handful of items stored that way. All of them are on public display in DC and should be very familiar to all of out US members. (I'm sure there are a few similar things in other countries.)

Steve B

How long does U.S. paper money last...there is high rag contact that is good...but I want to know how long so I can spend it before it disappears..people get money encapsulated as well...

[steve B]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

How long does U.S. paper money last...there is high rag contact that is good...but I want to know how long so I can spend it before it disappears..people get money encapsulated as well...

If it's not circulating, a very long time.

If it's being used...........The figure I used to hear was about 18 months for the typical one dollar bill. The bigger denominations lasted longer.

I know they encapsulate that as well. And grade it too. The registry contest applies almost everywhere.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

How long does U.S. paper money last...there is high rag contact that is good...but I want to know how long so I can spend it before it disappears..people get money encapsulated as well...

In my daughter's hands, about five minutes, it seems.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

In my daughter's hands, about five minutes, it seems.

You need to try higher denominations I hear they last longer.Lol

[steve B]

A few reference points from elsewhere. Mostly related to what might be in a high rag content paper.

Oldest European wool textile - about 1500 BC. preserved in a Danish peat bog. (Nearly no oxygen environment)

Oldest linen - about 7000 BC ! A fragment wrapped around the handle of an antler tool. Preserved by partial fossilization from the calcium in the antler. There are fragments from Egypt that are about as old.
http://ounodesign.com/2008/10/30/the...-in-the-world/

Flax fiber fragments indicating use in textiles have been found in digs that are as far back as 34000 BC

Oldest cotton - 3000-2500 BC Pre Incan grave cloths

Oldest silk - About 1300 BC.

The oldest paper items found are Chinese and from right around 2000 years ago. They include flax and mulberry fibers.

So, assuming the T cards are on high rag content paper I'd guess that with a bit of care there might be a few left a thousand years from now.

Steve B

[tschock]

Originally Posted by steve B

Oddly I'm of the opinion that encapsulation will make the problem worse. A card that's essentially loose can shed some acid to the atmosphere, an encapsulated card will be contained in an increasingly acidic environment.

Steve B

Steve,

I wondered that myself. Even if the plastic in which the card is entombed were not in and of itself harmful to the card in the long term (is the plastic used similar to mylar or acid free?), but are we essentially creating a self-feeding acid bath for the cards with the little bit of air that is also encapsulated?

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by tschock

Steve,

I wondered that myself. Even if the plastic in which the card is entombed were not in and of itself harmful to the card in the long term (is the plastic used similar to mylar or acid free?), but are we essentially creating a self-feeding acid bath for the cards with the little bit of air that is also encapsulated?

I think most of us have cards over 100 years old, and these have some wear due to handling, but really haven't deteriorated due to the passage of time. I'm with Leon: they'll very likely last far, far longer than any of us. decades, centuries, milleniums?

Best to all,

Larry

[steve B]

Originally Posted by ls7plus

I think most of us have cards over 100 years old, and these have some wear due to handling, but really haven't deteriorated due to the passage of time. I'm with Leon: they'll very likely last far, far longer than any of us. decades, centuries, milleniums?

Best to all,

Larry

The concern isn't for cards in general, but for cards printed on more acidic cardboard AND housed in a holder like a grading slab that has limited air flow to allow gasses from decomposition to get out.

Whether that's actually a concern or not is hard to say. I'd love to see some before and after pictures of cards on fairly bad cardboard that were graded very early on. I'd be surprised if photos like that exist, but maybe for something like a 52 Mantle there would be auction pictures.

Of course they could slab a few sample cards with a test strip and see what happens over time. But I'm not sure any of the 3 main companies would do that.

Steve B

[tschock]

Originally Posted by ls7plus

I think most of us have cards over 100 years old, and these have some wear due to handling, but really haven't deteriorated due to the passage of time. I'm with Leon: they'll very likely last far, far longer than any of us. decades, centuries, milleniums?

Best to all,

Larry

Totally agree. However there are some issues that are (obviously) more sensitive than others, such as butterfingers, strip cards, et al. If these are stored in the wrong conditions (high humidity, heat, light, etc), they will deteriorate much more rapidly than those on cardboard and could literally fall apart before we are gone. Much similar to comics in that regard. Cardboard is stable relative to these types of issues.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by tschock

Steve,

I wondered that myself. Even if the plastic in which the card is entombed were not in and of itself harmful to the card in the long term (is the plastic used similar to mylar or acid free?), but are we essentially creating a self-feeding acid bath for the cards with the little bit of air that is also encapsulated?

The slabs themselves are probably polycarbonate (Lexan) and should be somewhat archival. Maybe not quite as good as Mylar, but still just fine for most things.

Steve B