What Should A Dealer Do?

[vintagetoppsguy]

For anybody that thinks the dealer has an obligation to educate the seller, let's turn the situation around. If you were buying the same card from a dealer and he had it marked at $50, would you tell him you think it's worth $3K (just throwing that number out there) and offer him more, or would you just pay his $50 asking price?

I'm just curious how you answer the question when the scenario if flipped.

[Bored5000]

This thread makes me think it would an interesting case study for someone take a card like the one shown to a major show and see how often a seller would be taken advantage of vs. the other options.

[ibuysportsephemera]

For those posting that they think that the dealer has an obligation to inform...I call BS. If you are "stupid" enough to take a card that you know nothing about to a card show and sell it to the first dealer you approach, you deserve to be low balled.

Sorry to be so "rude" about this, but in today's age of information (on your phone, computer, tv, etc.) there is no excuse other than laziness for not being informed.

Jeff

[travrosty]

That's not true.

[Laxcat]

Jeff- that sounds like projection.
That makes all dealers sound like crooks. That has been the general view on all collectible dealers since the dawn of time. I take offense to it. I watched my father do honest business for over 25 years. I mimic what I saw.

I recently started setting up at shows by myself. I had a great conversation with someone that I just met about postwar errors, blank backs, off register cards and the such. He browsed my table for some Twins stuff and found a quite tough modern era error that I had priced at $1. He informed of the rarity and told me to be sure not to sell it for $1.

This stuff happens. We just all need to do it. I think it would do wonders for our reputation(s) and perhaps bring more people to the collecting world.

Steve- I agree with everything you said.

[ibuysportsephemera]

Originally Posted by Laxcat

Jeff- that sounds like projection.
That makes all dealers sound like crooks. That has been the general view on all collectible dealers since the dawn of time. I take offense to it. I watched my father do honest business for over 25 years. I mimic what I saw.

I recently started setting up at shows by myself. I had a great conversation with someone that I just met about postwar errors, blank backs, off register cards and the such. He browsed my table for some Twins stuff and found a quite tough modern era error that I had priced at $1. He informed of the rarity and told me to be sure not to sell it for $1.

This stuff happens. We just all need to do it. I think it would do wonders for our reputation(s) and perhaps bring more people to the collecting world.

Steve- I agree with everything you said.

Matt...I am not advocating ripping someone off at all. Under the scenario that is presented, isn't it the buyers obligation to shop around with many dealers to get the best offer? Assuming that all the dealers are not standing together, some will be helpful and others not so much. If the buyer does his due diligence, the not so honest dealer will never have a shot at the card because there will be someone else who treats the seller of the card more fairly and probably still gets a heck of a deal.

Jeff

[Kevin.Shenker]

Originally Posted by ibuysportsephemera

For those posting that they think that the dealer has an obligation to inform...I call BS. If you are "stupid" enough to take a card that you know nothing about to a card show and sell it to the first dealer you approach, you deserve to be low balled.

Sorry to be so "rude" about this, but in today's age of information (on your phone, computer, tv, etc.) there is no excuse other than laziness for not being informed.

Jeff

If you wear a skirt into an alley way you deserve to be raped? Pretty much the same thing you just said. They were asking for it for sure.

[ibuysportsephemera]

Originally Posted by Kevin.Shenker

If you wear a skirt into an alley way you deserve to be raped? Pretty much the same thing you just said. They were asking for it for sure.

Not even close.

Jeff

[larrie804]

Many years ago (15 or so) I ask my sister in law to watch my tables at a small mall show while I went to listen to Cal Ripken, Jr speak at a public forum. The next morning, at the show, I found a note from my sister in law saying she had had a very slow evening....only one $5.00 sale! About 3 PM a lady came to my table and said she just couldn't do it. I asked her what she meant. She handed me the very nice 1954 Ted Williams card she had purchased from my sister in law the previous evening for $5.00! I was very surprised to discover what the $5.00 sale had been. I told the lady I was impressed with her honesty and gave her $50.00. The card had been marked $500.00.

Larrie Dean

[kilo]

a few years ago i was dealing heavily in vintage bmx bikes and parts. someof you know what i'm talikng about, some dont of course, but please bear with me here....

one day a friend calls me up (a competative dealer/collector friend i might add) and asks me what i think a chrome hutch windstyle frame might be worth. i inform him that no windstyler frames were ever issued in chrome, (which is quite true), so if it really is what he says that it had to be an aftermarket job. he tells me that he just bought one for $50 earlier in the day and says he will bring it up to the house for me to see (showing off pretty much). when he shows up i do get a chance to have a thorough look at it. i tell him it is most deffinitally NOT a windstyler frame, although it IS of high-quality based on the welds/chrome job/dropouts/etc, although i do not know what it is. i decided to make him what i thought was a fair offer based on what little info i had (which was pretty much nothing). i offered to triple his money, figuring it might leave me with around $50 or so of profit margin to work with, (keep in mind, this is only based on the quality of craftsmanship i can see in the frame, and still know nothing of who made it). he takes the offer and is quite happy. he just tripled his money in less than 12hrs, and is quite happy make sure i know this. i spend roughly the next 4 months sifting through information, emailing pics with other dealers, and talking on the phone with high-end collectors about this frame. finally some credible information comes through! turns out that said frame is an excedingly rare revcore freestyler of which roughly only 75 or so were made, and i get an approximate value of what it should retail at: around $500-600. ok, now i am informed! i list it on the bay with a bin of $450 (leaving someone else room for their own profit margin of course) and lasts all of about 10 minutes. a few days go by and the "friend" asks me if i had any luck on finding out what that frame that he tripled his money on. so i give tell him everything i found out and that it had sold (and, yes, for how much -we were friends after all-). all of the sudden he gets PISSED!
edited to add: i should add that he was pissed off at me. saying how i had ripped him off. and that now i owe him money.

anybody wanna tell me why he is not my friend anymore?



--mike kilo.

[PolarBear]

I don't think you did anything wrong in the bike frame transaction. You took a chance on something that was unidentified and spent time and effort doing your own research to add value to it.

Nothing wrong with that. Too bad your "friend" didn't see it that way.

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by ibuysportsephemera

For those posting that they think that the dealer has an obligation to inform...I call BS. If you are "stupid" enough to take a card that you know nothing about to a card show and sell it to the first dealer you approach, you deserve to be low balled.

Sorry to be so "rude" about this, but in today's age of information (on your phone, computer, tv, etc.) there is no excuse other than laziness for not being informed.

Jeff

I don't think it is "laziness" or "stupid" not to find information on a print freak like shown in this thread. Obviously, someone posting on a vintage baseball card site will know that such print freaks have been in demand in recent years. The card shown in the original post is a lot different from, say, a Cracker Jack Joe Jackson or a T206 Plank, where the value will instantly pop up with any number of search terms.

I could easily see how someone would try to research the value of the card shown in the original post and still not have any idea of the value. Putting terms like "John McGraw baseball card" or "John McGraw T206" into Google generates result after result that give no indication of the value of the card shown. The "no excuse" for not being informed on something obscure like a print freak seems really off the mark, IMO.

Some of the posts in this thread just seem like a rationalization to fleece someone.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Bored5000

The "no excuse" for not being informed on something obscure like a print freak seems really off the mark, IMO.

Exactly, which is why I chose it for the poll. This card looks like a mess and is not easy to find with Google unless you already know what you're looking for.

[pokerplyr80]

My thought is it would depend on the situation. Is this some old lady trying to sell her husband's collection? Did the person ask what the dealer feels the card is worth or what is a fair price?

If someone walked up and said I'm trying to get $50 bucks for this card are you interested, I don't necessarily see a problem with paying the asking price. If someone is asking for help because they don't know what they have the right thing to do would be to offer a fair price that leaves the dealer to make a fair profit.

[Rich Klein]

And some peopel don't want to know or care.

This is a real life situation which came up. One of the dealer4s at the show I run also runs a local show. He wanted to buy all pre-1980 non basebal cards and I offered him a very fair price (and would have kicked in some other stuff as well; the post-1980 non BB cards I carry)


One of the cards I had (and tried to explain to him just how well he'd do with the deal was a slate 1948B Arnie Risen card. Tried to explain what it was and how much was it worth. His answer to me was something to the effect he did not really want the education to have to explain that to a customer.

Long story short, friend of mine comes to my show about 2 months later. Looks at that card, buys it immediately (Gave him a very deep discount since he has helped me get guests for our show AND went to the same college I did AND sends out promotions for our show)

He was beaming with his purchase and I said we're probably hte only 1 pwoplw whol knew what that card really was

Sometimes the customer does not care. Just because "WE" know the card is expensive does not mean the average collector might think its anything more than a messed up flluke.

Me, if something like that came in, I'd call LEON and tell him to get his butt down to my show - as I've seen him do for other collectors

Rich

[t206trader]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

For anybody that thinks the dealer has an obligation to educate the seller, let's turn the situation around. If you were buying the same card from a dealer and he had it marked at $50, would you tell him you think it's worth $3K (just throwing that number out there) and offer him more, or would you just pay his $50 asking price?

I'm just curious how you answer the question when the scenario if flipped.

I think the difference is the dealer IS an expert on the subject matter. If they aren't, they stand to lose money and go out of business. Does a buyer have an obligation to do research, yes. Still, who could respect someone who took advantage of someone else who didn't have ANY knowledge of what they had. While it seems easy for most of us to access prices via ebay or auctions this is not true for some of the general public who have never even accessed ebay. I think that if the individual approaches and has no idea what they have, the dealer owes a moral obligation to at least inform the seller. Anything less seems at the very least sheisty.

[Laxcat]

Depends on the dealer. If he/she has always tried to lowball me on everything I have for sale, then the answer is no. If the dealer is someone that helps others or does charity stuff for kids etc, yes I tell them it's worth more than $50.

If it comes to my table I will try to tell them what it is worth or find someone that does know. It would be out of my price range if it was a 3k card. My reputation as a dealer would be worth more to me than making that $2950.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

For anybody that thinks the dealer has an obligation to educate the seller, let's turn the situation around. If you were buying the same card from a dealer and he had it marked at $50, would you tell him you think it's worth $3K (just throwing that number out there) and offer him more, or would you just pay his $50 asking price?

I'm just curious how you answer the question when the scenario if flipped.

Some interesting comments all around.

I went with the "educate the buyer and offer a bit less than a recent sale" option.
But I could just as easily have gone with the "tell them about some auction houses" option.
If I were a dealer the choice between the two would depend on whether the card was a good fit with my inventory and if I had enough on hand to make a reasonable offer.
I might also refer a seller to another dealer who'd be a better buyer, or possibly to a particular collector if they were there.


As far as what I'd do from the opposite side of the table, that to me is different. Some random person who has a card or cards to sell might have a hard time finding enough information to have a decent idea what they have, unless the card is an easy one to identify like most mainstream postwar cards.

A dealer on the other hand should have the knowledge to at least know if something is "special" or not. And enough sense to look it up. So if it was on a dealers table for $50 yes, I'd buy it. (Making a handful of exceptions for dealers who I've known long enough to be closer to friends than just someone I do business with - But it's rare that I know something they don't) Overall it's a bit more complex when it's a dealer.

I have bought some stamps from dealers on Ebay who are fairly advanced and should have known what they were selling but didn't take the time.
One very advanced dealer I asked about stuff like that told me that for the difference in price he'd get on specific items I'd bought (Not from him) he couldn't be bothered to look up the special varieties. The time to become a specialist would be too costly. Note, this is a guy who typically has stuff in inventory in the mid 5 figures, so learning about the stamp with a $2K catalog value that there's only a handful known genuinely isn't worth his time.

I've also known dealers like someone else mentioned who thought their escapades in seriously lowballing people showed their smarts or something. I didn't avoid buying from them, but did make the rounds of their shops a couple times a year. They made their own mistakes......

Steve B

[SAllen2556]

The sports memorabilia business is completely unregulated. As long as it is, the answer will almost always be “feign indifference”. There’s too little risk compared to the reward. This is brought to light and discussed on an almost daily basis right here - gratefully I might add. Everything from fakes on eBay to shilling to even trimming the most famous card of all time - the reward almost always outweighs the risk.

Last card show I went to, I saw two trimmed cards in the first 10 minutes. I told the dealers who "feigned ignorance". What's the risk to the dealer? Like I'm gonna call a cop over a trimmed card at a show?

I actually don’t know what I’d do. I’d like to think I’d be honest, but…….

I can say, however, I would never hesitate to rip off a dealer- as if! Sorry.

[midmo]

.

[ibuysportsephemera]

I am in no way saying be dishonest. I don't conduct my business that way at all. I was probably too broad in my last statement. Every circumstance is different and it really depends how the situation plays out.

I echo David's question above...As a buyer, if you see an item that is being sold by a dealer (who is a total stranger) way under value...do you offer him or her more money? I am sure that the answer is probably no for most (if you were being totally honest).

Jeff

[vintagetoppsguy]

I'm not sure why it's different when the situation is reversed. A couple years ago, there was a board member that picked up a T206 Brown OM back (from a PWCC auction) for about $51.

Here is the original thread (save yourself a lot of reading and pick up from post #30).

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=173902

Post #85 is where the board member comes forward as the buyer.

If you're going to inform an uneducated seller about the value of a card, does it matter if that seller is PWCC (the Brown OM back), or a relative of a deceased collector? I really see no difference. And I'm not saying there is a right or wrong answer, but I find it interesting how people justify things based on the roles of who the buyer/seller is.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I'm not sure why it's different when the situation is reversed. A couple years ago, there was a board member that picked up a T206 Brown OM back (from a PWCC auction) for about $51.

Here is the original thread (save yourself a lot of reading and pick up from post #30).

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=173902

Post #85 is where the board member comes forward as the buyer.

If you're going to inform an uneducated seller about the value of a card, does it matter if that seller is PWCC (the Brown OM back), or a relative of a deceased collector? I really see no difference. And I'm not saying there is a right or wrong answer, but I find it interesting how people justify things based on the roles of who the buyer/seller is.

+1

[ullmandds]

i mean just last week the board was applauding a chap for "stealing" a t206 starr w/drum back at an antique store...shouldn't he have informed the seller????

[drcy]

I think in some areas, if not everywhere, it's illegal for a knowledgeable dealer to deceive a uninformed person in order to buy something too cheap, I believe there was such a case involving an Antiques Roadshow civil war expert. Got the very rare and valuable items cheap by deceiving the owner into believing the were worth much less.

In general, I think you should give a fair deal-- though a fair deal can certainly can include room for profit for you. I'm not expecting dealers to run a charity.

I also think there is a distinct difference when the seller already has a sales price and when he/she asks you for the value.

I also assume this poll is about total beginners off the turnip truck (or even not even beginners because they don't collect but found something), not antique stores who are literally licensed professionals and set the prices. What to do at an antique store or dealer's booth would be a separate poll.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

i mean just last week the board was applauding a chap for "stealing" a t206 starr w/drum back at an antique store...shouldn't he have informed the seller????

Absolutely not. If you're selling you'd better know what you're selling. Especially an antique/pawn shop.

[Jantz]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

If you're going to inform an uneducated seller about the value of a card, does it matter if that seller is PWCC (the Brown OM back), or a relative of a deceased collector? I really see no difference. And I'm not saying there is a right or wrong answer, but I find it interesting how people justify things based on the roles of who the buyer/seller is.

That would depend on if the uneducated seller consigned cards, then admitted to allowing his consigners to bid on their own auctions.

[Exhibitman]

Let's be clear: no one condones capitalizing on mistakes. In the example with the Ryan rookie, obviously, the wife misread the $500 label. That's the equivalent of a clerk giving you change for a $100 instead of a $10.

Making an offer on a card or paying a buyer's ask price across a table at a collectibles show is part of the business. I (and all of you who attend shows or antique fairs or flea markets) spend days scouring through stuff looking for value. Everyone at a show knows that buyers want to get something great for cheap and sellers want to sell things as highly as they can. If everything was priced to 'market' and no one knew anything more than anyone else, many (most?) collectible sales would not happen. Wanting something shiny and new only gets you so far; there has to be a perception of value or you end up with boxes of shiny crap no one wants [sound familiar, former 1990s pack busters?].

A buyer who just takes the first dealer offer through the door at a collectibles show is lazy, dumb and blind to what's around him. I have zero pity for that guy.

We also don't know the circumstances of the multi strike back deal. Perhaps there was only one dealer who was interested in a beater McGraw at the seller's price. Until relatively recently FUBARed T206s were considered junk box bait; that's where I got most of mine. Some people still think of them that way.

One other thing to consider: in sitting at selling tables at shows over the last 30+ years [geez, I feel old sometimes] I cannot tell you how many times I am approached by someone with cards for sale who lets me go through them, takes my offer, and then walks away to try and find someone to top it. For every schmuck who hands over a rare card for fifty bucks, I bet there are twenty who waste hours of dealers' time shopping a deal around a show floor.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

For anybody that thinks the dealer has an obligation to educate the seller, let's turn the situation around. If you were buying the same card from a dealer and he had it marked at $50, would you tell him you think it's worth $3K (just throwing that number out there) and offer him more, or would you just pay his $50 asking price?

I'm just curious how you answer the question when the scenario if flipped.

I'm with you on this Dave.