I think Big Papi is winning me over - even if I don't want him to

[chaddurbin]

until bonds get in, all these ped guys just take 10 steps back and form a line behind him. i'm not even against ped guys getting into the hof, but the line should start behind the best player this side of ted williams...until then i don't care about arod clemens manny and much less david ortiz.

[egri]

An observation, then my prediction;

It seems that over the past few years, we've become more accepting of PED usage. I'm not sure if that's because so many athletes have admitted to it or been caught, or if it's just the pendulum swinging away from the Mitchell Report and all of the prosecutions that followed in its wake, but it doesn't seem like a failed drug test is the scarlet letter it used to be.

I think if Ortiz has a couple more seasons like this one, it will be very tough to keep him out. On another board I saw it posted that Ortiz could conceivably end up with 560 home runs, 1,800+ RBI, and 2,500 hits. And that's before you get to his role in winning three World Series titles, reversing the 'curse' and his leadership after the Boston Marathon bombing. And fairly or not, Ortiz is more likeable than A-Rod, Bonds, Sosa, so I predict he will get a boost that those three did not.

[Hot Springs Bathers]

MLB is not the "anything goes NFL" PED users will not make the Hall of Fame.

[Econteachert205]

Is cocaine a performance enhancing drug? I'd say so. So that would mean an awful lot of hofers from the 70's and 80's cheated. How about greenies and other amphetamines in the late 50's early 60's? Spitballs? Paging Gaylord perry.. Every team had a player on ped's. Every fan rooted for someone they knew was probably juiced. The sanctimonious commenting is just ridiculous. I'll let others smarter than me figure out who belongs in the hall, it's been compromised ten ways from Sunday anyway.

[freakhappy]

These types of threads are amusing...nothing against the OP because he didn't stir the pot or anything, but it's about some of the following responses. I don't like cheaters either, but it's funny how many people on here that don't realize or don't care that many HOFers already admitted that they cheated or they've been revealed otherwise.

I think if they get caught, they should pay a penalty...suspension, fine, whatever. But in reality, the numbers speak for themselves. No one is hitting the homeruns, driving in runs, stealing bases, other than the actual players. David Ortiz was struggling mightily at the beginning of this year and a lot of people wrote him off and then, boom! He found his swing and he's been on a tear ever since. Why?? Because he's a monster of a hitter and he found a way out of the dreadful slump. His numbers speak for themselves, so I'm not debating on whether he's a HOFer or not, because according to his numbers, he is. Whether he's a HOFer in anyone else's mind is irrelevant, but it does make for a good conversation.

Bottom line is if you don't think he's a HOFer because he was a cheater, then you need to list all of the "cheater's" that are already in the HOF and make sure you call them out as well...otherwise, you are a hippocrite.

[packs]

I keep hearing people bring up greenies. If you want to call those PEDs, it's probably because you're a fan of someone who used steroids and you'd like to add legitimacy to their career by trying to equate amphetamines to steroids.

Let's be clear. Steroids alter your body. You might try to make the comparison that amphetamines alter your brain chemistry, but we're talking about the physical body. You can do things on steroids that you can't otherwise. I would argue you can do all the same things on greenies that you could without them. So they're not really the same at all. You can't pop a greenie and hit a 500 foot home run over night. But you can do all that and more injecting PEDs into your body, or using a cream, or eating gummies, or whatever other method there is to doing them.

When a guy is using PEDs, you're not seeing the same player playing the same game. You're seeing a different player creating a new career. I don't know if you guys have much experience with uppers, but I never saw a guy pop an Adderall and sprout a brand new body.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by packs

I keep hearing people bring up greenies. If you want to call those PEDs, it's probably because you're a fan of someone who used steroids and you'd like to add legitimacy to their career by trying to equate amphetamines to steroids.

Let's be clear. Steroids alter your body. You might try to make the comparison that amphetamines alter your brain chemistry, but we're talking about the physical body. You can do things on steroids that you can't otherwise. I would argue you can do all the same things on greenies that you could without them. So they're not really the same at all. You can't pop a greenie and hit a 500 foot home run over night. But you can do all that and more injecting PEDs into your body, or using a cream, or eating gummies, or whatever other method there is to doing them.

When a guy is using PEDs, you're not seeing the same player playing the same game. You're seeing a different player creating a new career. I don't know if you guys have much experience with uppers, but I never saw a guy pop an Adderall and sprout a brand new body.

I believe the people sticking up for the amphetamine users are doing it because their favorite player(s) came from that era.

Let me explain what amphetamines really do. Just remember that day you went to work super tiered and was not very productive. Now take that same day and add amphetamines and now you just had one of your most productive days ever. That is what they really do.

[Hot Springs Bathers]

I agree on Perry but I looked at the list of HOFers that played from the 60's on up and I don't find a single name that I know of that was a cocaine user????

Of course that sage former second baseman Jeff Kent once said that he was pretty sure Babe Ruth used PEDs????????????????

[packs]

I'm sure a ton of guys in the 80s were using cocaine, but I'm not sure which HOFers people are talking about. Either way, cocaine is not going to give you an immortal arm or allow you to hit 500 homers when before using cocaine you were a middling average player (like David Ortiz).

Also, if you really want to say that cocaine is a PED, how do you explain the drug's drastic effect on the careers of its users? Did Darryl Strawberry have a great career because he used cocaine? How about Doc Gooden?

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by Hot Springs Bathers

I agree on Perry but I looked at the list of HOFers that played from the 60's on up and I don't find a single name that I know of that was a cocaine user????

Of course that sage former second baseman Jeff Kent once said that he was pretty sure Babe Ruth used PEDs????????????????

Sure he did...Pork & Edible 'Dogs

[steve B]

Originally Posted by packs

I keep hearing people bring up greenies. If you want to call those PEDs, it's probably because you're a fan of someone who used steroids and you'd like to add legitimacy to their career by trying to equate amphetamines to steroids.

Let's be clear. Steroids alter your body. You might try to make the comparison that amphetamines alter your brain chemistry, but we're talking about the physical body. You can do things on steroids that you can't otherwise. I would argue you can do all the same things on greenies that you could without them. So they're not really the same at all. You can't pop a greenie and hit a 500 foot home run over night. But you can do all that and more injecting PEDs into your body, or using a cream, or eating gummies, or whatever other method there is to doing them.

When a guy is using PEDs, you're not seeing the same player playing the same game. You're seeing a different player creating a new career. I don't know if you guys have much experience with uppers, but I never saw a guy pop an Adderall and sprout a brand new body.

Have you ever taken anything like Adderall?

My experience the first day on Ritalin for add was pretty crazy. I'd been drinking something like 8+ cups of coffee for a few years and was started on a tiny dose of Ritalin. Kicked in about the time I got to work, and I had my usual amount of coffee.

I apparently did about two days work before lunch when I was due for the second little bit. Not sure just how much I got done overall, but it was a LOT.
When I explained that I'd finally figured out to not have to coffee the next day, the boss said "thank god, you did a ton of work, but wouldn't shut up. And were going so fast we had a hard time understanding you. "
I also went to bed exhausted at around 8 instead of my usual midnight.

I'm pretty sure If I'd tried running I'd have been faster, and if anything would give me a remote chance of hitting an actual fastball, that would be it.

There's a reason nearly every sport makes you file for an exemption if you're diagnosed. (It also leaves the body quickly, so keeping it out of the actual competition is manageable ) And - surprise surprise, what's been a commonly diagnosed ailment in Baseball and Football and probably a lot of other sports?

Steve B

[steve B]

As another bit of info, when the whole PED thing was starting to come out I had an acquaintance who had been a competitive weight lifter and wrestler in the late 70's.

He said he had known for years that many baseball players were taking something. He also said the stuff he knew didn't actually make you stronger, what it did do was put your recovery ability sort of off the charts. So instead of having to train with lots of weight on for instance Monday and then needing to do lighter weights Tuesday and Wednesday before going back to the big weight Thursday. Steroids let the users train with lots of weight every day, and that's what built the mass and strength.

The down side was that peoples joints are only built for the slower increase in strength without the steroids. The added strength was able to cover for that for a while, but eventually the users would have breakdowns in joints and tendons etc.

That was when the light went on for me. I'd thought it was odd that so many very fit athletes were coming up with muscle and joint problems. Pulled this, torn that - at a rate I didn't recall seeing before. I'd figured the money made them more cautious about playing hurt, but he said that was how he knew lots of players were on something. He'd seen it before.

Steve B