I think Big Papi is winning me over - even if I don't want him to

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by packs

He is not a HOFer, he is a cheater. Always has been, always will be. Difference between him and a guy like Jason Giambi is integrity. Jason Giambi admitted what he did. Ortiz has denied, denied, denied.

No room for you in my hall.

A big +1 for me also. Before he went to the Red Sox and discovered steroids he could not even make the everyday lineup in Minnesota.

[ScottR81]

Guys I'm sure half of the players in every sport have cheated or have tried. whether it's steroids or putting a foreign substance on the ball or hollowing out a bat or deflating footballs....I mean they just found a Mickey Mantle bat that was corked and God knows how many hits or home runs he had with that bat, so does that make him a cheater and we should discredit all of the stats and remove him from the Hall of Fame??

I'm not for cheaters either but clearly there's hardly a way to stop everybody from ever cheating. we'll never know about the guys that never got caught..

it's all about money and entertainment.

[packs]

Yeah but in this day and age if you cheat, you have every opportunity to own up to it, and plenty of players have. But this one player, David Ortiz, chooses to lie, deny, or ignore the issue every time he's presented with it.

If you cheated, then admit you cheated. You're guilty either way.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by bnorth

A big +1 for me also. Before he went to the Red Sox and discovered steroids he could not even make the everyday lineup in Minnesota.

Have you read any of the books about him or the Sox at the time? The Twins were trying to make him into an opposite field singles hitter. Francona told him during the first spring training that he wasn't there to hit singles and to swing away.

Only two of his seasons are in the top 200 all time for ab/hr And his last season with Minnesota was a respectable 20Hr in 412 AB, so he was hitting pretty well even with them
http://www.baseball-reference.com/le...n_season.shtml

His two years in the top 200 for that stat were at ages 29 and 30. Which lines up reasonably well with the assumed "clean" players with better seasons. _ ones from the top 20 only.
Ruth 1920 8.48 ab/hr age 25 1921 9.15 age 26 1927 9.00 age 32 1928 9.93 age 33
Jim Thome 2002 9.23 age 31
Mantle 1961 9.52 age 29
Hank Greenberg 1928 9.59 age 27
Roger Maris 1961 9.67 age 26
---------------------------
Ortiz 2006 10.33 age 30 (26th) 2005 12.79 age 29 (188th)
The entire rest of the top 20 seasons is all filled by Bonds McGwire and Sosa.
Sosa was in his late 20's early 30's but McGwire was mid -late 30's and bonds late 30's. All the assumed clean players except Ruth only had one or two years in the top 20 the three ped users had 3-5 years

So not really an age/performance profile that's all that unusual

Every team has their questionable guys, many that are decried as cheaters did it before MLB had any clear policy or testing program. The allegation against Ortiz is from the survey testing in 2003 before the actual program started in 2004. And there's some questions about the accuracy of the 2003 program.
http://www.boston.com/sports/basebal...statement.html

That report is apparently still sealed because of ongoing litigation, and neither MLB nor the players association were able to provide any details at the time or since.
The main points-
Positive in that report isn't necessarily positive for steroids.
Even a positive for steroids could be unintentional or even false given the lax rules at the time.

Opiates are a banned substance. And common food items can cause a positive test.
https://www.erowid.org/plants/poppy/poppy_testing.shtml

Nearly everything you can buy in GNC will probably cause a positive test as well.
And there's a load of stuff in the vitamin aisle at every Pharmacy and supermarket that could also cause a problem.

A few things I'm left with having looked up the stats.
1) What the heck was Ruth taking? Just kidding, but it just shows how far beyond everyone else he was.
2) I think I have a better appreciation for Mickey Mantle. In addition to the two top 20 ab/hr years he's also got the 24th best
3) Sosas three top 20 years were in the lower half of the top 20 and at younger ages maybe..........?


Steve B

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by steve B

Have you read any of the books about him or the Sox at the time? The Twins were trying to make him into an opposite field singles hitter. Francona told him during the first spring training that he wasn't there to hit singles and to swing away.

Only two of his seasons are in the top 200 all time for ab/hr And his last season with Minnesota was a respectable 20Hr in 412 AB, so he was hitting pretty well even with them
http://www.baseball-reference.com/le...n_season.shtml

His two years in the top 200 for that stat were at ages 29 and 30. Which lines up reasonably well with the assumed "clean" players with better seasons. _ ones from the top 20 only.
Ruth 1920 8.48 ab/hr age 25 1921 9.15 age 26 1927 9.00 age 32 1928 9.93 age 33
Jim Thome 2002 9.23 age 31
Mantle 1961 9.52 age 29
Hank Greenberg 1928 9.59 age 27
Roger Maris 1961 9.67 age 26
---------------------------
Ortiz 2006 10.33 age 30 (26th) 2005 12.79 age 29 (188th)
The entire rest of the top 20 seasons is all filled by Bonds McGwire and Sosa.
Sosa was in his late 20's early 30's but McGwire was mid -late 30's and bonds late 30's. All the assumed clean players except Ruth only had one or two years in the top 20 the three ped users had 3-5 years

So not really an age/performance profile that's all that unusual

Every team has their questionable guys, many that are decried as cheaters did it before MLB had any clear policy or testing program. The allegation against Ortiz is from the survey testing in 2003 before the actual program started in 2004. And there's some questions about the accuracy of the 2003 program.
http://www.boston.com/sports/basebal...statement.html

That report is apparently still sealed because of ongoing litigation, and neither MLB nor the players association were able to provide any details at the time or since.
The main points-
Positive in that report isn't necessarily positive for steroids.
Even a positive for steroids could be unintentional or even false given the lax rules at the time.

Opiates are a banned substance. And common food items can cause a positive test.
https://www.erowid.org/plants/poppy/poppy_testing.shtml

Nearly everything you can buy in GNC will probably cause a positive test as well.
And there's a load of stuff in the vitamin aisle at every Pharmacy and supermarket that could also cause a problem.

A few things I'm left with having looked up the stats.
1) What the heck was Ruth taking? Just kidding, but it just shows how far beyond everyone else he was.
2) I think I have a better appreciation for Mickey Mantle. In addition to the two top 20 ab/hr years he's also got the 24th best
3) Sosas three top 20 years were in the lower half of the top 20 and at younger ages maybe..........?


Steve B

No I have never read a book on baseball as I would find it boring. My opinion comes from making the 600 mile round trip to watch the Twins play several times a year while he was actually playing there. Then seeing the dramatic changes in him as soon as he arrived on a team full of PED users.

The funny part is I really don't have a problem with PED users. I believe several of the all-time greats used including Mantle and especially the 2 year wonder Roger Maris.

[packs]

Maris did not cheat. Breaking the record destroyed his life. You have to remember what it was like for him during that season and the intense hate directed at him at 26 years old. It wasn't like when McGwire broke the record and the country was cheering him on. Everyone wanted Maris to fail.

[chaddurbin]

until bonds get in, all these ped guys just take 10 steps back and form a line behind him. i'm not even against ped guys getting into the hof, but the line should start behind the best player this side of ted williams...until then i don't care about arod clemens manny and much less david ortiz.

[egri]

An observation, then my prediction;

It seems that over the past few years, we've become more accepting of PED usage. I'm not sure if that's because so many athletes have admitted to it or been caught, or if it's just the pendulum swinging away from the Mitchell Report and all of the prosecutions that followed in its wake, but it doesn't seem like a failed drug test is the scarlet letter it used to be.

I think if Ortiz has a couple more seasons like this one, it will be very tough to keep him out. On another board I saw it posted that Ortiz could conceivably end up with 560 home runs, 1,800+ RBI, and 2,500 hits. And that's before you get to his role in winning three World Series titles, reversing the 'curse' and his leadership after the Boston Marathon bombing. And fairly or not, Ortiz is more likeable than A-Rod, Bonds, Sosa, so I predict he will get a boost that those three did not.

[Hot Springs Bathers]

MLB is not the "anything goes NFL" PED users will not make the Hall of Fame.

[Econteachert205]

Is cocaine a performance enhancing drug? I'd say so. So that would mean an awful lot of hofers from the 70's and 80's cheated. How about greenies and other amphetamines in the late 50's early 60's? Spitballs? Paging Gaylord perry.. Every team had a player on ped's. Every fan rooted for someone they knew was probably juiced. The sanctimonious commenting is just ridiculous. I'll let others smarter than me figure out who belongs in the hall, it's been compromised ten ways from Sunday anyway.