Future HOFers

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by rats60

I am sorry, but the numbers aren't remotely close. This is something we are just going to have to agree to disagree on. Koufax's last 3 full seasons
Games Started
40
41
41
Complete Games
20
27
27
Innings
311
336
323
Shutouts
11
8
5

Koufax was able to put up his numbers pitching deap into games.Just because Kershaw doesn't have stamina, look at how he was shelled in the 7th inning his last two playoff games, is no reason to downgrade Koufax.
When a pitcher is given more rest, when a pitcher doesn't have to go through a lineup an extra time, when a pitcher doesn't pitch tired, his numbers should be much better. Koufax was a much better pitcher at his peak. It is reflected in the total picture, not cherry picking stats or ratios that favor the pitcher with the light load. It is reflected in the stats you just chose to dismiss like WAR.

Not only do today's starters have a lighter load (more rest between starts, PLUS rarely finishing), but they also are rarely pitching under the pressure of the 8th and 9th innings when most games are still on the line. You can't blame Kershaw for being a product of his era, but at the same time you can't take away from Koufax by saying things like his WAR is better only because he had more wins, as if somehow that were unimportant.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Since this is a baseball card forum...

[packs]

I don't know if there's any merit to arguing about whether or not Kershaw is good. He IS good. But he is not a HOFer today. That much we can be sure about.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Not only do today's starters have a lighter load (more rest between starts, PLUS rarely finishing), but they also are rarely pitching under the pressure of the 8th and 9th innings when most games are still on the line. You can't blame Kershaw for being a product of his era, but at the same time you can't take away from Koufax by saying things like his WAR is better only because he had more wins, as if somehow that were unimportant.

But, I can blame him for not being more valuable. Recent WARs, Halliday 8.9, Greinke 10.4. Going back a few years, R. Johnson 10.9, P. Martinez 11.7, Clemens 11.9. Trying to justify Kershaw's lower WAR is just an excuse. I blame him for not pitching no hitters 4 years in a row. I blame him for not pitching back to back shutouts in the postseason , instead getting shelled twice. I can blame him for being the reason his team lost instead of carrying his team, see Madison Bumgarner. Kershaw may be the best of today, but he doesn't compare well to the best of other eras at this point in his career.

[tschock]

In comparison, one thing Kershaw and Koufax do have in common. Neither of them can/could hit.

Bumgarner had 4 HRs last year and 5 already this year? And a ..250-ish BA the past 2 seasons? Not sure if that makes late inning decisions harder or easier. Pitching comparison? Not quite there yet, but definitely a much bigger stud in the post season.

[packs]

Koufax was his own pitcher. There will never be another pitcher like him. Numbers don't tell you everything about a person. The man was pitching with an arm that no major league team would even let a pitcher toss batting practice with today. And he still dominated the game.

You can't say that about anyone else.