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#51
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I'm not a big WAR guy, I see a lot of problems with it. However when we are comparing players at the same position, I also see it's value. More and more HOF voters are going to look at advance metrics and use them in their process. Molina is a very good player, just not HOF worthy. |
#52
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Again, I know I am bias and I know it isn't a sure thing, but I wouldn't count him out as career catchers are rare and even rarer to maintain as the premier defensive catcher after 10 years.
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https://www.flickr.com/photos/bn2cardz/albums |
#53
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I'd never vote for Bonds sorry just my stand point on him as a person (how you handled the media counts even though it shouldn't see Jack Morris for that) and as a jealous PED user. If you let PED users in McGwire should be a lock as well as Sosa. At least those guys were likable. And they both have the stats or should we say HR's to put them in.
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429/524 Off of the monster 81% 49/76 HOF's 64% 18/20 Overlooked by Cooperstown 90% 22/39 Unique Backs 56% 80/86 Minors 93% 25/48 Southern Leaguers 52% 6/10 Billy Sullivan back run 60% 237PSA / 94 SGC / 98 RAW Excel spreadsheets only $5 T3, T201, T202, T204, T205, T206, T207, 1914 CJ, 1915 CJ, Topps 1952-1979, and more!!!! Checklists sold (20) T205 8/208 3.8% |
#54
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Future HOFers
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But the things he did for those years no catcher had ever done before. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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HOFAutoRookies.com Last edited by HOF Auto Rookies; 08-25-2015 at 12:33 PM. |
#55
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So yes McGwire Palmeiro Sosa Bonds...I believe should get in. |
#56
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Idk, maybe because of almost 1,000 K's through his age 26 season. Certainly has the looks of getting to 3k. Felix will be a HOF'ER, if healthy. He played on bad Mariners teams and doesn't have many wins. Gunna hold him back too? Pointless column is Wins. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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HOFAutoRookies.com Last edited by HOF Auto Rookies; 08-25-2015 at 12:34 PM. |
#57
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I think Sale will get there if he stays healthy. He's up there with Kershaw etc. Last edited by ksabet; 08-25-2015 at 12:37 PM. |
#58
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Also if he weren't on the Sox his record would be just a tad better. WE SUCK. Look at poor Quintana most ND's over the last 4 years in baseball.
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429/524 Off of the monster 81% 49/76 HOF's 64% 18/20 Overlooked by Cooperstown 90% 22/39 Unique Backs 56% 80/86 Minors 93% 25/48 Southern Leaguers 52% 6/10 Billy Sullivan back run 60% 237PSA / 94 SGC / 98 RAW Excel spreadsheets only $5 T3, T201, T202, T204, T205, T206, T207, 1914 CJ, 1915 CJ, Topps 1952-1979, and more!!!! Checklists sold (20) T205 8/208 3.8% Last edited by Joshchisox08; 08-25-2015 at 12:41 PM. |
#59
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I would say Sale and Felix are the best pitchers in the AL and 2/3 in all of baseball behind Kershaw for the past few years, so yes. Sale seems to be competing every year for the strikeout title. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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HOFAutoRookies.com |
#60
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Lots of potentials in that timeframe. One doesn't know how certain players will be viewed down the line / who else gets revealed as a PED guy. I'll stay within the current voting enviroment and stick with guys I feel will deserve to be in, vote or vet committee. Most will be 90's to mid 2k's players off the top of my head so I'll miss some guys. I'll leave the Posey's, Trout's, Mauer's to others
Mariano Rivera Mike Piazza Jim Thome Larry Walker Jeff Bagwell Tim Raines Mike Mussina Lee Smith Adrian Beltre Jeff Kent Edgar Martinez Ken Griffey Jr Trevor Hoffman Fred McGriff Ivan Rodriguez Vladimir Guerrero Chipper Jones Scott Rolen Andruw Jones Omar Vizquel Todd Helton Carlos Delgado Carlos Beltran Albert Pujols I've missed some names in there. When Clemens and Bonds are elected it likely opens up the gates a bit for some others like McGwire, Ortiz etc. I like players such as Torii Hunter, Jim Edmonds, Jorge Posada etc but I dunno. I see them getting the Alan Trammell - Dwight Evans style treatment myself. Curt Schilling , Roy Halladay are going to get close if not in IMO, similar to Jack Morris style ballots. Some of the new guys, Harper, Trout, etc. Who knows. You can have 4-5 top notch seasons then it can come crashing down quick (Don Mattingly). Jury is out IMO. |
#61
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I'd love for Torii to just get a vote or two. So glad he's back home. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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HOFAutoRookies.com |
#62
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He's got 220k's this year his career high is 226 he's being compared to Randy Johnson more and more lately and that makes me one happy Sox fan !!! If he can even come close to what Johnson did
__________________
429/524 Off of the monster 81% 49/76 HOF's 64% 18/20 Overlooked by Cooperstown 90% 22/39 Unique Backs 56% 80/86 Minors 93% 25/48 Southern Leaguers 52% 6/10 Billy Sullivan back run 60% 237PSA / 94 SGC / 98 RAW Excel spreadsheets only $5 T3, T201, T202, T204, T205, T206, T207, 1914 CJ, 1915 CJ, Topps 1952-1979, and more!!!! Checklists sold (20) T205 8/208 3.8% |
#63
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I think he gets more than a vote or two |
#64
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He better! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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HOFAutoRookies.com |
#65
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But I do think regardless of league that Kershaw is the most dominant pitcher to come along in a while. |
#66
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Chris Sale, Clayton Kershaw, and King Felix are all in the Johan Santana / JR Richard boat right now. You can't call any of them a HOFer and none of them have the career to get them in today. Each of them could just as easily become a Johan or JR in the blink of an eye.
Remember Tim Lincecum? He's still pitching for the Giants, not that you would notice. Last edited by packs; 08-25-2015 at 01:28 PM. |
#67
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Oh for sure! 100% agree. Was just saying they've been dominant for 5+ years or so (except Sale this is his 5th great season), but I'll feel a lot more comfortable with another 5-7+ solid years. Oh yes, he's truly amazing. If he continues injury free, could be top-5 lefty. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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HOFAutoRookies.com Last edited by HOF Auto Rookies; 08-25-2015 at 01:29 PM. |
#68
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My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#69
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I don't think the PED users should get in, but you should probably hedge and keep them just in case.
I don't think I've seen these names yet: Madison Bumgarner Dale Murphy Will Clark Andy Pettite |
#70
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Future HOFers
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Pettite was a user. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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HOFAutoRookies.com Last edited by HOF Auto Rookies; 08-25-2015 at 01:53 PM. |
#71
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I know. Just saying if you start letting Bonds and Clemens get in, these others will probably follow. Not that I agree with it.
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#72
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Oh, gotcha. Sorry, didn't know if you had known or not lol. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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HOFAutoRookies.com |
#73
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Haven't seen Joey Votto mentioned yet. .955 career OPS, and he's having a nice bounce back year right now.
If we are mentioning PED guys, Ryan Braun has to be mentioned as a possibility if he keeps his numbers up. |
#74
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I think Ortiz will have a little difficulty in the short run, after having tested positive for steroids in the initial 2003 testing (results of which were supposed to have remained confidential, but did not in many cases).
Collect him if you like him, Larry |
#75
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A very good bet there, I think. Exceptional hitting production for a third baseman, and great in the field.
Larry |
#76
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I dunno. Yes to what you say, but on the other hand, one HR title, one hits title, no MVPs, only 4 all star selections, and who but a hardcore fan could even tell you where he played? EDIT TO ADD If he keeps going and gets to 3000 hits, then I think his odds vastly improve. If not, he may be Dave Parker.
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#77
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Chipper should be a sure-fire, first-ballot electee, unless I'm not aware of some PED taint. Posey is a fabulous catcher, but will have trouble dislodging Berra, Campanella and Bench for the title of the greatest of all time, especially with the much-discussed shift to first base, and the fact that he never has had quite the HR power of the other three. As to Kershaw, I'd never put money on pitchers as sure-bet HOF'ers until nearly the final tally is in. What they do best is get hurt and/or lose their effectiveness. Verlander, for example, pitched himself into the HOF in his twenties, and pitched himself back out (thus far) in his thirties. Another reason to be leery of Kershaw is the fact that much of his effectiveness is due to the trick/hitch delivery, and the fact that the ball seems to suddenly appear from behind his head. The latter worked for Jerod Weaver until his fastball dropped to mid-80's at best, and with respect to the former, hitters often get accustomed to freak deliveries. Kershaw has virtually the exact same stuff as Bumgarner: 93-95 mph fastball, good slider and curve. Both are very good pitchers, but IMHO, Kershaw to date has piled up the better stats due to the hitch/halt in his delivery, and the fact that he hides the ball better than the Giants' ace. Just my two cents worth, Larry Last edited by ls7plus; 08-25-2015 at 06:15 PM. |
#78
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My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#79
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I just loved how Halladay in the PED era and pitch count/innings limit era, led the league/ or was near top in innings and complete games all the time. He also didn't play on some of the greatest Jays teams and still ended with an excellent winning percentage.
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Er1ck.L. ---D381 seeker http://www.flickr.com/photos/30236659@N04/sets/ Last edited by yanksfan09; 08-25-2015 at 06:57 PM. |
#80
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More to the point, how does one accumulate 20,000 autographed cards?
This thread lost total credibility once the name Andruw Jones was thrown out. Is there a better example of a player who got paid and then gave up once he had a guaranteed big money contract? I go by the Dale Murphy Rule. If a player is not more prominent and heralded in his own era than Murphy was in his, then his name shouldn't even be mentioned in HOF discussion. There are only a small handful of players active or recently retired who will make the Hall, and I'd definitely not promote any of the young crop of recent stars until they are 7-8 years in. |
#81
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__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#82
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More to the point, how does one accumulate 20,000 autographed cards?
It's not as hard as you think.
__________________
Check out my aging Sell/Trade Album on my Profile page HOF Type Collector + Philly A's, E/M/W cards, M101-6, Exhibits, Postcards, 30's Premiums & HOF Photos "Assembling an unfocused collection for nearly 50 years." Last edited by HRBAKER; 08-25-2015 at 07:38 PM. |
#83
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How anyone that watches baseball questions Clayton Kershaw being a HOF player is beyond me.
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#84
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For the simple reason that it's too early in his career. Doc Gooden started off 119-53. Kershaw is 108-55.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 08-25-2015 at 07:55 PM. |
#85
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He certainly seems headed that way, but to Peter's point so did Gooden. Clayton doesn't seem to have the demons that Dwight did. If his career ended today - he would not get in, hence I don't regard him as a lock.
__________________
Check out my aging Sell/Trade Album on my Profile page HOF Type Collector + Philly A's, E/M/W cards, M101-6, Exhibits, Postcards, 30's Premiums & HOF Photos "Assembling an unfocused collection for nearly 50 years." Last edited by HRBAKER; 08-25-2015 at 08:04 PM. |
#86
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And if he went 90-95 for the rest of his career averaging 9 wins a season I'm not sure he would get in either. He's quite obviously on track, but he has to keep going.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#87
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As another example, Denny Mclain. 114-57 at age 25. And then....
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 08-25-2015 at 08:26 PM. |
#88
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How to accumulate so many signed cards. Get spring training rosters for majors and minors and try to buy at least 4-5 cards of each guy or as many as available as well as all minor league team sets for that team for the previous years. Spend 3 weeks at mlb spring training and another 2 at minor league getting aautographs from 6am-6pm 7 days a week. Average day is 100-200 different signed cards. Do it for 10 years. You may end up with 30 or more signed cards (all different) of some guys that are willing signers- so for instance Josh Hamilton would gladly sign 6-8 cards at a time. get different ones each year and pretty soon you have 4--50 of him especially with all the variations- chrome, regular, etc. Go to minor league spring training that has 200 players armed with 1-3 cards of most of them.. Be a perfectionist/hoarder. Some folks have 100,000 signed and then the dealers who get many of the same card signed at a time to sell on ebay may have up to 500,000 signed in their inventory especially getting guys in their first minor league season when they gladly sign everything everyone has.
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#89
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Two of the most under-appreciated hitters in the game today. I picked Votto back up on my fantasy team two weeks ago, and he's exploded. He's an on base machine. Got 3 more walks last night, up to 106 for the season. Hitting .309 with a .446 OBP and a .956 OPS. He's a former MVP winner, 4 time All Star, and a former Gold Glove winner. Braun's slowly coming back to where he was before the thumb injury. He's been hitting the ball really hard as of late (.333 in August with a .955 OPS), and as his BAbip continues to correct, he'll get closer to .300 again for the season.) He's won an MVP, finished 2nd and 3rd other times, has been an All Star six times, and has five Silver Sluggers. Both are 31. They'll need about 5 more years of strong production before they should start consider warranting real consideration. Their career numbers thus far are excellent. Their Hall of Fame metrics are intriguing as well. Braun's ..and Votto's
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#90
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EDITED to add in no way shape or form is David Ortiz a HOFer or should ever be considered anything other than a guy that steroids gave him all his #'s. He couldn't even make the Twins everyday lineup without them. Last edited by bnorth; 08-26-2015 at 06:12 AM. |
#91
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They have no problem adjusting to him by the 7th inning of playoff games.
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#92
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Clayton Kershaw has been the dominant pitcher in the NL, and baseball, for five season straight. And you could make the case it's really been six. In 2010, he was only 13-10, but had a 2.91 ERA and 202 K's as a 22 year old. His 133 ERA + was only 4 points off of Gooden's rookie season, which everybody went gaga over. When I show you his Hall of Fame metrics, Peter, he's already crossed some of those Hall thresholds, and he's only 27. He has led the National League in: Wins: twice, 2011 (21), and 2014 (21) ERA: four times, 2011 (2.28), 2012 (2.53), 2013 (1.83), and 2014 (1.77). Strikeouts: two times, 2011 (248), 2013 (232). He leads the NL with 222 in 117 IP this year. WHIP: four times, 2011 (0.977), 2012 (1.023), 2013 (0.915), 2014 (0.857). Hits per 9 IP: three times, 2009 (6.3), 2011 (6.7), 2012 (6.7). He's won three Cy Young Awards, an MVP, and a Gold Glove. Going back to 2010, 183 starts, he's 95-42 with a 2.26 ERA with 1,382 K's in 1,276 IP. And his control is improving, if you can believe that. He struck out 10.8 per 9 IP (best in the NL) last year, while walking only 32 batters, a league-best 7.71 K's per walk. This year he has 222 K's against 32 walks, a 6.91 K per walk ratio. To put his greatness in perspective, since 1901, of all Major League pitchers with at least 1,500 innings pitched in their first eight seasons (there are 250 of them), only four--Walter Johnson, Mordecai Brown, and Lefty Grove--had a better ERA + than Kershaw's 153. Of those 250 pitchers, only Tom Seaver, Bert Blyleven and Johnson struck out more batters than Kershaw (and they had 2,167, 2,143 and 2,442 innings pitched compared to Kershaw's 1,555!) His strikeouts per 9 IP average of 9.6 is the third highest in baseball history behind Randy Johnson and Pedro Martinez (just ahead of Nolan Ryan). And, it's rising. He's striking out 11.3/9 IP this year.
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Building these sets: T206, 1953 Bowman Color, 1975 Topps. Great transactions with: piedmont150, Cardboard Junkie, z28jd, t206blogcom, tinkertoeverstochance, trobba, Texxxx, marcdelpercio, t206hound, zachs, tolstoi, IronHorse 2130, AndyG09, BBT206, jtschantz, lug-nut, leaflover, Abravefan11, mpemulis, btcarfagno, BlueSky, and Frankbmd. Last edited by the 'stache; 08-26-2015 at 06:53 AM. |
#93
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By the way, here are his Hall of Fame metrics. Pretty eye popping.
__________________
Building these sets: T206, 1953 Bowman Color, 1975 Topps. Great transactions with: piedmont150, Cardboard Junkie, z28jd, t206blogcom, tinkertoeverstochance, trobba, Texxxx, marcdelpercio, t206hound, zachs, tolstoi, IronHorse 2130, AndyG09, BBT206, jtschantz, lug-nut, leaflover, Abravefan11, mpemulis, btcarfagno, BlueSky, and Frankbmd. |
#94
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Yeah two years in a row now, right?
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#95
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Quote:
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My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#96
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Kershaw's 45.2 WAR through his first eight season is the 15th highest by any pitcher going back to 1901. Figure he has 7 or 8 more starts this season based on games remaining, and the Dodger rotation. He has a 5.5 WAR through 23 starts, so, if his production is constant, figure another 1.8-2.0 WAR this season. That puts him right behind Christy Mathewson's 47.7 WAR through his first eight seasons for thirteenth-best ever. Now, it's hard to compare different eras, and I'm certainly not equating Kershaw to Mathewson--because I want to see how Kershaw's career finishes before I even think of putting him anywhere near arguably the best pitcher to ever play the game (Matty is on my short list of five-Walter Johnson, Cy Young, Greg Maddux being three of the other four for sure. Then I look at a group including Roger Clemens, Bob Gibson, Bob Feller, Lefty Grove, Sandy Koufax, Pedro Martinez, Randy Johnson, Tom Seaver, Steve Carlton, Warren Spahn, and Grover Cleveland Alexander)....as you alluded to, Peter, I also need to see Kershaw bring some of that dominance to the post season, because, quick glance, all of those other names I mentioned won at least one World Series in their careers (if it was played). If Walter Johnson could win one on that horrible Senators team, then Kershaw has no excuses. If he can't win at least one ring on a team that spends $250 million a year on payroll, and has another ace in Zack Greinke, my opinion of him will dip.
BUT, I can compare their careers to this point, and I feel pretty safe in saying we're witnessing one of the all-time greats right now. I don't see Kershaw having a Dwight Gooden or Denny McClain downfall. I hope that he doesn't have an essentially career-ending injury, like a J.R. Richard, or Herb Score. What happens going forward we'll find out in time. But Kershaw has been absolutely dominant. And this little beauty rests in my safe deposit box, going up in value:
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#97
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I've always wondered what would have happened to the Houston Astros if J.R. Richard hadn't had that blood clot. How great could their starters have been in 1981? The Braves rotation of the early to late 90s is often mentioned as the best in the modern era-in 1993 they had Tom Glavine (22-6), Greg Maddux (20-10), Steve Avery (18-6), and John Smoltz (15-11), and in 1998 they had Glavine (20-6), Maddux (18-9), Smoltz (17-3), Kevin Milwood (17-8) and Denny Neagle (16-11). Of course, the 1971 Baltimore Orioles had four 20 game winners in Dave McNally (21-5), Pat Dobson (20-8), Mike Cuellar (20-9) and Hall of Famer Jim Palmer (20-9). But look at what the Astros could have put out there in the mid 80s. In 1980, J.R. Richard started 17 games before collapsing during a pre game warm up. That stroke ended his career. He'd been 10-4 with a 1.90 ERA, 119 K's in 113 IP, and a 174 ERA +. His WHIP was a career-best 0.924. He'd gone 36-24 with a 2.90 ERA and 616 K's the prior two seasons. He was clearly one of the most dominant pitchers in the game, and was only 30. And, to that point, he'd only pitched 1,600 career innings. He hadn't worked over 100 innings in a season until 1975, when he first went over 200 IP. The Astros also still had Nolan Ryan, who would have a spectacular 1981 strike-shortened season. He was 11-5 with a league-leading 1.69 ERA, 140 K's in 149 IP, and an amazing 2 home runs allowed. His ERA + was a whopping 195, the best of his Hall of Fame career. The Astros also had Joe Niekro, who was 4th in the National League Cy Young Award for the 1980 season. He was 20-12 with a 3.55 ERA, and 127 K's. In 1981, he was only 9-9, but he had a 2.82 ERA, and a 1.187 WHIP, which is very good. In 1982, he would go 17-12 with a 2.47 ERA, and a 1.067 WHIP. Niekro would remain in Houston until late 1985, when he went to the Yankees. But what if Richard's career had continued? The Astros would feature Richard, Ryan, Niekro...and in 1983, they would be joined by Mike Scott. Scott, of course, won the Cy Young in 1986 for the Astros, going 18-10 with a 2.22 ERA, and 306 K's. Nolan Ryan, the ageless wonder, was still a great pitcher. In 1986, he struck out 194 batters. The next four seasons, he would lead the league in K's, with 270 and 228 in 1987 and 1988 with the Astros, and 301 and 232 in 1989 and 1990 with the Rangers. In 1986, the Astros would have featured three pitchers who'd thrown over 300 strike outs in a season as their top 3, Bob Knepper, who won 17 games in 1986 as their #4, and Jim Deshaies as their #5. Deshaies went 12-5 with a 3.25 ERA that year. The Astros went 96-66 in 1986 without Richard. The Astros lost to the eventual World Champions, the New York Mets, in the NLCS. The Mets won 108 games that year. Could Richard have made the difference?
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#98
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breaks my heart to this day that the 'Stros lost in '86 to the Mets...That was an AWESOME series (from the perspective of an impressionable 9-year old)!
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... http://imageevent.com/derekgranger HOF "Earliest" Collection (Ideal - Indiv): 250/346 (72.3%) 1914 T330-2 Piedmont Art Stamps......: 114/119 (95.8%) 1923 V100 Willard's Chocolate............: 180/180 (100%) Last edited by h2oya311; 08-26-2015 at 12:13 PM. |
#99
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As stated elsewhere, what pitchers do best is get hurt or lose their fastballs, most often right after someone signs them to a very large contract. We have no idea if Kershaw is going to turn out any better than say, Justin Verlander, who pitched himself into the Hall in his 20's and thus far (with the exception of 7 of his last 8 starts--it appears that he is learning the importance of command with his fastball, a better slider to get righties out with,, and generally how to pitch, rather than just be a power thrower, something he's never had to do before this), out of it in his 30's. See in this vein also Sudden Sam McDowell, who was virtually unhitable for a large portion of the '60's, as well as Gooden, who was all the rage in the collecting circles of the '80's and even into the very early '90's.
Let us also not forget Kerry Wood, who before hurting himself, was about as dominant as they come. On the other hand, some guys just enjoy shooting craps! Great discussion, Larry Last edited by ls7plus; 08-26-2015 at 05:41 PM. |
#100
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I believe with the way baseball has changed that the day of 300 game winners is over. Kershaw has been the most dominant pitcher in baseball for a 5-6 year stretch and counting. Is he going to win 511 games or throw 25-30 complete games a year?? Of course not but neither is anyone else. In my opinion if Kershaw retired at the end of this season he would be a HOFer. His stretch of greatness has been just as impressive as Koufax in my opinion and nobody questions him being a HOFer.
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