Future HOFers

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Mark

This sounds right to me, and I'd be surprised if Ortiz and Molina don't get in. Among the retired, Jeter, Jones, Halladay, and Rivera seem like sure things to me. There are others, like Beltran and Beltre, who pile up big HOF numbers and who might get the nod even though few have ever talked about them being THE player of the year. Then there is the whole generation of PED era all-stars who will probably get in, after a decent interval.

Halladay had a phenomenal winning percentage but barely passed 200 wins with a relatively short career -- borderline I think. I just don't see Molina -- 100 HR in 12 years so far, .736 OPS, .284 BA. There is a whole host of catchers with stats like that, or better, that aren't in.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Halladay had a phenomenal winning percentage but barely passed 200 wins with a relatively short career -- borderline I think. I just don't see Molina -- 100 HR in 12 years so far, .736 OPS, .284 BA. There is a whole host of catchers with stats like that, or better, that aren't in.

Fat Sloppy is a ROID user who got a pass and has a horrible attitude and thinks he's entitled to things.

If there's any ounce of justice left he shouldn't be in the HOF.

[Peter_Spaeth]

A guy who was headed for greatness but imploded after age 30 was Roy Oswalt. He had a phenomenal record after his first 8 years. (134-62)

[yanksfan09]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Halladay had a phenomenal winning percentage but barely passed 200 wins with a relatively short career -- borderline I think. I just don't see Molina -- 100 HR in 12 years so far, .736 OPS, .284 BA. There is a whole host of catchers with stats like that, or better, that aren't in.

Halladay may not have had the longevity as stated but I much prefer the stars like this who were at the top of the sport for a number of years over the lesser talented players who never get hurt and compile stats over time. Halladay would get my vote. He was a real throwback pitcher who completed games when no other pitchers did and put up stellar numbers in his day.

[yanksfan09]

I'll take 5 years from a Koufax over a Phil niekro career any day.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by yanksfan09

Halladay may not have had the longevity as stated but I much prefer the stars like this who were at the top of the sport for a number of years over the lesser talented players who never get hurt and compile stats over time. Halladay would get my vote. He was a real throwback pitcher who completed games when no other pitchers did and put up stellar numbers in his day.

On that theory you should support Guidry? Fairly comparable stat line in terms of big seasons.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Halladay had a phenomenal winning percentage but barely passed 200 wins with a relatively short career -- borderline I think. I just don't see Molina -- 100 HR in 12 years so far, .736 OPS, .284 BA. There is a whole host of catchers with stats like that, or better, that aren't in.

Preface this with saying I am in St. Louis.
The problem with the anti (Yadier) Molina camp is that, as with any catcher, you can't just look at offense. Molina has been the team captain since he joined the team in 2004.

Molina has is ranked 18 all time in putouts and the only active player ahead of him (Pierzynski) has 6 more years then him (the least amount of years ahead of him is 3 more seasons).

His total zone runs is ranked only second behind Ivan Rodriguez.

His caught stealing percentage leads the way buy 5.97% of the next active catcher.

He also may not have the most impressive offensive numbers, but they aren't shabby either.

This combined with the fact that he has a .328 BA in 21 World Series games he may have enough to push him over.

And he does this all as a FULL TIME catcher (Molina has the second most games as a Catcher again behind Pierzynsk), having only played 2 full games as a 1st baseman (after starting in 4 and playing in a total 32). Compare this to Posey (someone mentioned may be the best catcher) who has already started 132 games at 1B. Also Posey only has a dWAR of 5, with his best season topping out at 2 (Molina has a career dWAR of 20 with 5 seasons at 2 or higher).

Posey is a good offensive player, but I predict he will be moved to a full time 1B position to keep him playing as happens to most catchers with better offense than defense.

All this said I don't think this makes him a sure shot. I believe he needs a few more decent seasons to make it more clear that he deserves to be in the ranks of the other catcher greats, but he is certainly shown he has what it takes thus far.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

Preface this with saying I am in St. Louis.
The problem with the anti (Yadier) Molina camp is that, as with any catcher, you can't just look at offense. Molina has been the team captain since he joined the team in 2004.

Molina has is ranked 18 all time in putouts and the only active player ahead of him (Pierzynski) has 6 more years then him (the least amount of years ahead of him is 3 more seasons).

His total zone runs is ranked only second behind Ivan Rodriguez.

His caught stealing percentage leads the way buy 5.97% of the next active catcher.

He also may not have the most impressive offensive numbers, but they aren't shabby either.

This combined with the fact that he has a .328 BA in 21 World Series games he may have enough to push him over.

And he does this all as a FULL TIME catcher (Molina has the second most games as a Catcher again behind Pierzynsk), having only played 2 full games as a 1st baseman (after starting in 4 and playing in a total 32). Compare this to Posey (someone mentioned may be the best catcher) who has already started 132 games at 1B. Also Posey only has a dWAR of 5, with his best season topping out at 2 (Molina has a career dWAR of 20 with 5 seasons at 2 or higher).

Posey is a good offensive player, but I predict he will be moved to a full time 1B position to keep him playing as happens to most catchers with better offense than defense.

All this said I don't think this makes him a sure shot. I believe he needs a few more decent seasons to make it more clear that he deserves to be in the ranks of the other catcher greats, but he is certainly shown he has what it takes thus far.

His WAR is 30.5. Maybe if it was 40+ I could see a case. 50+ as a catcher and I would have him as a lock. Mauer is at 47.5 and people are questioning him. Posey is already at 28.1 and will sail by Molina. Even a few more good years leaves him well short.

I'm not a big WAR guy, I see a lot of problems with it. However when we are comparing players at the same position, I also see it's value. More and more HOF voters are going to look at advance metrics and use them in their process. Molina is a very good player, just not HOF worthy.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by rats60

His WAR is 30.5. Maybe if it was 40+ I could see a case. 50+ as a catcher and I would have him as a lock. Mauer is at 47.5 and people are questioning him. Posey is already at 28.1 and will sail by Molina. Even a few more good years leaves him well short.

I'm not a big WAR guy, I see a lot of problems with it. However when we are comparing players at the same position, I also see it's value. More and more HOF voters are going to look at advance metrics and use them in their process. Molina is a very good player, just not HOF worthy.

This goes back to my paragraph about full time catchers. Mauer hasn't played a game as a catcher since 2013. Posey is being groomed to move to 1st base, as this season he only has 73 CG behind the plate compared to Molina's 93 CG. This year Posey only has 721.2 innings compared to Molina's 984.1 innings thus far (where as Posey has only had one season that has even exceeded this number and they still have until Oct 4th). Posey is the better Offesive player, but that is why I believe he will be utilized more as a 1st baseman in the future and he will not be the best catcher as you stated.

Again, I know I am bias and I know it isn't a sure thing, but I wouldn't count him out as career catchers are rare and even rarer to maintain as the premier defensive catcher after 10 years.