OT: Greatest Living Four

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

WIth year after year of an ERA under 2 one suspects he was pretty good on the road too. I am doubting Dodger Stadium explains his greatness.

From 1963-66, his road ERAs: 2.31, 2.93, 2.72, 1.96
and his home ERAs: 1.38, 0.85, 1.38, 1.52


Obviously, Koufax's road numbers for that stretch are still outstanding. But it's also obvious that he was a LOT more mortal on the road than at home. If he replicated his road performance at home in each of those years, he'd have led the league just once in that span instead of all four years. In 1964, he wouldn't have made the top 10.

So, in conclusion, yeah, Dodgers Stadium helped Koufax's greatness. Quite a bit. Guys putting up 2.50, 2.60, 2.70 ERAs in that era were fairly common. And that's what Koufax did outside of Chavez Ravine.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Tabe

From 1963-66, his road ERAs: 2.31, 2.93, 2.72, 1.96
and his home ERAs: 1.38, 0.85, 1.38, 1.52


Obviously, Koufax's road numbers for that stretch are still outstanding. But it's also obvious that he was a LOT more mortal on the road than at home. If he replicated his road performance at home in each of those years, he'd have led the league just once in that span instead of all four years. In 1964, he wouldn't have made the top 10.

So, in conclusion, yeah, Dodgers Stadium helped Koufax's greatness. Quite a bit. Guys putting up 2.50, 2.60, 2.70 ERAs in that era were fairly common. And that's what Koufax did outside of Chavez Ravine.

Do you have a view then on whether Marichal, for the same period, was as good as Koufax?

[aro13]

Do you have a view then on whether Marichal, for the same period, was as good as Koufax?

Peter - My point was that Koufax became Koufax when the Dodgers started playing home games in Dodger Stadium, not because he learned to throw his fastball with more command or throw more strikes with his curveball. He benefitted from playing his home games in Dodger Stadium but so did every other pitcher that pitched there. He was just better. Just because Koufax had a bigger home park advantage at Dodger Stadium than other pitchers does not mean he should be evaluated differently.

There is an outfielder who was a lock first ballot HOFer and considered a legend of the game and if you doubled his road numbers his career totals would have looked like this:
3194 hits 430 homers .264 average .357 OBP and .422 SLG - Hall Worthy?

Bill James addressed the Marichal - Koufax question "(I always wondered) whether Koufax's advantages were just park effects. Had Marichal pitched in Dodgers Stadium and Koufax in Candlestick, it is quite likely that Marichal would have had lower ERA's than Koufax, and Marichal might have won the Cy Young awards.
However, since I have the Win Shares, I now realize that Koufax was in fact more valuable than Marichal in those key seasons."

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by aro13

Peter - My point was that Koufax became Koufax when the Dodgers started playing home games in Dodger Stadium, not because he learned to throw his fastball with more command or throw more strikes with his curveball. He benefitted from playing his home games in Dodger Stadium but so did every other pitcher that pitched there. He was just better. Just because Koufax had a bigger home park advantage at Dodger Stadium than other pitchers does not mean he should be evaluated differently.

There is an outfielder who was a lock first ballot HOFer and considered a legend of the game and if you doubled his road numbers his career totals would have looked like this:
3194 hits 430 homers .264 average .357 OBP and .422 SLG - Hall Worthy?

Bill James addressed the Marichal - Koufax question "(I always wondered) whether Koufax's advantages were just park effects. Had Marichal pitched in Dodgers Stadium and Koufax in Candlestick, it is quite likely that Marichal would have had lower ERA's than Koufax, and Marichal might have won the Cy Young awards.
However, since I have the Win Shares, I now realize that Koufax was in fact more valuable than Marichal in those key seasons."

I am sure you are talking about Yaz.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I am sure you are talking about Yaz.

Yes, he is.

Yaz is another guy I've ragged on quite a bit on here, for this same reason.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Do you have a view then on whether Marichal, for the same period, was as good as Koufax?

Hmmm...good question.

Career-wise, at Dodger Stadium for Juan Marichal:

14-11, 2.36 ERA, 0.981 WHIP in 29 starts.

And Candlestick:

122-58, 2.67 ERA


Sandy Koufax at Dodger Stadium:

57-15, 1.37 ERA in 85 starts.

And Candlestick:

7-7, 3.58 ERA in 16 starts


So, what does that tell us? Not a whole heckuva lot.

For 1962-66, I'd say Koufax was better, but the difference was small. The one thing Juan did than Koufax - he had seasons where he was actually better on the road than at home (like 1965).