OT: Greatest Living Four

tedzan · #1 07-15-2015, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Ted -- as to who contributed more to success -- Mantle on the same team, no? I know he is dead but my point is Yogi was not even the best player on his own team?

Peter

Why are you changing the subject matter ?

Aren't we discussing living BB players ? ?

If you want a conversation regarding Mickey, I welcome it. Let's include other teammates of Yogi's that were with him for a total of 14 - World Series............
DiMag, Maris, Rizzuto, Ford, Lopat, Don Larsen, Billy Martin and Johnny Mize. I've met all these guys....and, I've enjoyed some nice conversations with them.

So, bring it on, guy.

Incidentally, does any BB player besides Yogi have 10 - World Championship rings ?

TED Z
.

Peter_Spaeth · #2 07-15-2015, 07:43 PM

Ted, my point was that it's hard (for me anyhow) to consider Yogi the greatest living baseball player of them all when, for most of his career, he was not even the best player on his team. Yogi was a .280 hitter with pretty good power and, in fairness, a great catcher. According to the era-adjusted stats on Baseball Reference, he ranks 6th among catchers. Let's just say for argument's sake his intangibles move him higher. I still don't see how you can say, objectively and not influenced by your personal feelings for him, that he was better than Mays, Aaron, or a host of others. They just aren't comparable in baseball terms.

aro13 · #3 07-15-2015, 09:09 PM

I could see putting Berra in the top 4. He is either the best or second best catcher ever depending on your opinion of Johnny Bench. If you think catcher is the most important position on the diamond then Berra is not a reach.

Quote:

It took him (Koufax) until his 7th year to find his control, reportedly because someone -- one of the catchers -- finally figured out he was overthrowing.

Or maybe it was because the Dodgers moved to Dodger Stadium. If Koufax had pitched his entire career in Dodger Stadium his numbers would be even more mind boggling.

Peter_Spaeth · #4 07-15-2015, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aro13

I could see putting Berra in the top 4. He is either the best or second best catcher ever depending on your opinion of Johnny Bench. If you think catcher is the most important position on the diamond then Berra is not a reach.

Or maybe it was because the Dodgers moved to Dodger Stadium. If Koufax had pitched his entire career in Dodger Stadium his numbers would be even more mind boggling.

They moved there in 1958. He only pitched 2 full seasons in Brooklyn. Anyhow, hard to believe that was the difference, as he was dominant on the road once he achieved his stride.

Tabe · #5 07-16-2015, 10:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

They moved there in 1958. He only pitched 2 full seasons in Brooklyn. Anyhow, hard to believe that was the difference, as he was dominant on the road once he achieved his stride.

The Dodgers moved into Dodgers Stadium in 1962.

Tabe · #6 07-16-2015, 10:47 AM

For all the talk about Koufax's amazing 1963-66 run, only one guy has ever led the major leagues in ERA four straight seasons:

Clayton Kershaw

Peter_Spaeth · #7 07-16-2015, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tabe

The Dodgers moved into Dodgers Stadium in 1962.

WIth year after year of an ERA under 2 one suspects he was pretty good on the road too. I am doubting Dodger Stadium explains his greatness.

Tabe · #8 07-16-2015, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

WIth year after year of an ERA under 2 one suspects he was pretty good on the road too. I am doubting Dodger Stadium explains his greatness.

From 1963-66, his road ERAs: 2.31, 2.93, 2.72, 1.96
and his home ERAs: 1.38, 0.85, 1.38, 1.52

Obviously, Koufax's road numbers for that stretch are still outstanding. But it's also obvious that he was a LOT more mortal on the road than at home. If he replicated his road performance at home in each of those years, he'd have led the league just once in that span instead of all four years. In 1964, he wouldn't have made the top 10.

So, in conclusion, yeah, Dodgers Stadium helped Koufax's greatness. Quite a bit. Guys putting up 2.50, 2.60, 2.70 ERAs in that era were fairly common. And that's what Koufax did outside of Chavez Ravine.

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