OT: Greatest Living Four

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by Vintageclout

Sandy Koufax's standing amongst baseballs greatest pitchers ever will always be a huge conundrum with no definitive resolution in sight. While he is the irrefutable greatest peak value pitcher ever (1963 - 1966), his overall standing is marred with question marks. First & foremost is the fact that he excelled in the most formidable decade ever for pitchers. Through 1968, the 15 inch mound was a major reason for some of the most incredible single season pitching performances. It wasn't until they lowered the rubber to 10 inches in 1969 that a somewhat equal balance was restored. Additionally, how about Koufax's first 7 seasons which were extremely poor to average at best? How do you truly measure his extreme success vs. His extreme failures over a 7 year period? It all comes down to establishing an equitable balance between longevity and peak success and, sorry to say, Koufax falls short on this basis to the likes of Seaver. Carlton, Palmer, Johnson, Maddux, etc. That is why the JAWS concept of rating players is widely accepted by many experts for it measures a players career WAR AT 50% and his best 7 seasons at the remains 50% , thus combining peak value and longevity. Interestingly enough, excluding the cheater Roger Clemens, Seaver leads all post-WW II pitchers in both WAR & JAWS with Maddux and Johnson right behind Seaver. Simply srated, an incredible 4/5 year run that ranks as the finest ever is still not formidable enough to place a pitcher as king of the hill when it is not coupled with ANY additional formidable seasons.

I have an issue with the "irrefutable greatest peak value pitcher ever" statement. Why is Koufax' 4 years better than Lefty Grove's 1930-33? In fact, look at Grove's WAR for pitchers from 1930-1937, or even 1928-1937. NOBODY touches that dominance, not even a roided-up Clemens. Take what Grove did during the biggest hitter's era until the late 90's and move him into the pitching-friendly 60's, and he'd crush anyone.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

I have an issue with the "irrefutable greatest peak value pitcher ever" statement. Why is Koufax' 4 years better than Lefty Grove's 1930-33? In fact, look at Grove's WAR for pitchers from 1930-1937, or even 1928-1937. NOBODY touches that dominance, not even a roided-up Clemens. Take what Grove did during the biggest hitter's era until the late 90's and move him into the pitching-friendly 60's, and he'd crush anyone.

Johnson and Alexander had some unbelievable 4 year stretches that I would bet rival Koufax statistically. on an era adjusted basis

[earlywynnfan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Johnson and Alexander had some unbelievable 4 year stretches that I would bet rival Koufax statistically. on an era adjusted basis

Agreed. What I would give to go back 100 years ago, when Walter and Old Pete were absolutely dominating baseball.

[packs]

Don't forget the dominance of Big Ed Walsh either. From 1908 to 1912 he won 127 games with a 1.71 ERA and gave up 400 less hits than innings pitched.

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by earlywynnfan

I have an issue with the "irrefutable greatest peak value pitcher ever" statement. Why is Koufax' 4 years better than Lefty Grove's 1930-33? In fact, look at Grove's WAR for pitchers from 1930-1937, or even 1928-1937. NOBODY touches that dominance, not even a roided-up Clemens. Take what Grove did during the biggest hitter's era until the late 90's and move him into the pitching-friendly 60's, and he'd crush anyone.

In that 4 year period, Koufax averaged an ERA of approximately 1.90 along with 300+ strikeouts a year! Not even Grove posted numbers like that at his best. However, you make a SUPER point regarding the fact Grove's great seasons were during a hitters era vs. Koufax's prime being in a pitcher's era. Very Interesting!

[scottglevy]

Kind of a shame that none of the newer folks make a compelling enough case to be strongly considered for this list ... with the exception of Maddux or as a stretch Jeter IMO.

[Jlighter]

Originally Posted by scottglevy

Kind of a shame that none of the newer folks make a compelling enough case to be strongly considered for this list ... with the exception of Maddux or as a stretch Jeter IMO.

I think a lot of this has to do with nostalgia. Pedro had a sub 2 ERA in the year 2000, a year with the highest amount of run production since I believe the 30s. He had an ERA+ of almost 300. Rickey is first all time in steals and runs, while being second in walks.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Jlighter

I think a lot of this has to do with nostalgia. Pedro had a sub 2 ERA in the year 2000, a year with the highest amount of run production since I believe the 30s. He had an ERA+ of almost 300. Rickey is first all time in steals and runs, while being second in walks.

But for steroids, Bonds and ARod and maybe Pujols would merit very serious consideration as just as good as Mays and Aaron etc. Griffey too if he hadn't fallen off the cliff quite so young. So I don't think it's only nostalgia but the steroid era.

[Jlighter]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

But for steroids, Bonds and ARod and maybe Pujols would merit very serious consideration as just as good as Mays and Aaron etc. Griffey too if he hadn't fallen off the cliff quite so young. So I don't think it's only nostalgia but the steroid era.

I know, which is why we should give even greater respect for the pitchers who made it through the juiced era, obviously if they too are clean Clemens *cough. Maddux, Rivera, Pedro and Johnson all deserve to be in contention for top 4 living, and probably at least one should be on the list.

[packs]

Honestly I think I would rank Mariano Rivera the greatest inning per inning pitcher of all time. If it's game 7, bottom of the 9th and I'm up by 1 run, give me my choice of any pitcher in history to pitch that inning and I'm going to pick Mariano Rivera every time. That says something.