Bill Mastro's upcoming sentencing

[jmk59]

I agree with Adam. When it's our interests that are making their way through the legal system, it's about our rights and testing contested positions in court. When it's someone else's interests making their way through the legal system, now it's seeking loopholes.

People go to court every day for trivial items. When it comes to 10's of thousands of dollars, those who think ownership should simply be surrendered are largely those who don't own the item.

It likely won't get to that, but if Leon (or NYPL, for that matter) end up using the legal system to sort out ownership, there's no wrong in that.

[poorlydrawncat]

Originally Posted by jmk59

I agree with Adam. When it's our interests that are making their way through the legal system, it's about our rights and testing contested positions in court. When it's someone else's interests making their way through the legal system, now it's seeking loopholes.

People go to court every day for trivial items. When it comes to 10's of thousands of dollars, those who think ownership should simply be surrendered are largely those who don't own the item.

It likely won't get to that, but if Leon (or NYPL, for that matter) end up using the legal system to sort out ownership, there's no wrong in that.

Ok I have a huge issue with this. You are conflating legal right with moral right. They are two different things.

I can steal a million dollars and get off because they didn't read me my miranda rights. Does that mean that taking that million dollars is suddenly ok? If someone rapes someone and the statutes of limitations expire before they come to trial, does that make the action ok? No, just because someone has the law on their side doesn't mean their actions were morally acceptable.

To hold onto a stolen item by virtue of a legal technicality would be morally wrong wrong wrong and wrong no matter how you try and rationalize it to yourself. It doesn't suddenly become acceptable just because there's no legal recourse.

You'd be surprised, but there are a lot of people out there who would return the item without trying to leverage the legal system to keep it, just on the basis of it being the morally right thing to do. Then again there are a lot of people out there who wouldn't do the right thing and have a hard time understanding someone who would...

[ibuysportsephemera]

I like Leon...and I like Net54 even more. For all those critical or disappointed with Leon, why don't you find another sand box to play in? Leon is far nicer with the lynch mob types in this thread than I would be if I was the owner. I think most come here for enjoyment of the hobby but there is a group who always seem to be bickering with others. Let's remember who keeps this forum going.

Jeff

[poorlydrawncat]

Originally Posted by ibuysportsephemera

I like Leon...and I like Net54 even more. For all those critical or disappointed with Leon, why don't you find another sand box to play in? Leon is far nicer with the lynch mob types in this thread than I would be if I was the owner. I think most come here for enjoyment of the hobby but there is a group who always seem to be bickering with others. Let's remember who keeps this forum going.

Jeff

What keeps any forum going is its users, and Leon knows that, he's not naive. And the fact that he doesn't rule like a tyrant is what has made this forum successful. Forums run with an iron fist never last long, it just creates an exodus to a new forum.

But onto the real issue. Just because Leon runs a website that you like, that shouldn't be enough for you to sacrifice your principles. Otherwise why even bother having principles at all if you're only going to apply them when it's convenient for you?

[ibuysportsephemera]

Originally Posted by poorlydrawncat

What keeps this forum going is the users, and Leon knows that, he's not naive (if you don't believe me, look what happened to other sites like Digg...). Just because Leon runs a website that you like, that shouldn't be enough for you to sacrifice your principles. Otherwise why even bother having principles at all if you're only going to apply them when it's convenient for you?

Dude, you have no idea about who I am or what my principles are. Have you ever met Leon? Have you ever done business with him? I have, so at least I speak with a little bit of knowledge.

I knew when I made my post, it will get all of the Leon haters in a tizzy. I WILL not waste my time defending myself to faceless strangers staring at a computer screen. Have fun getting your kicks attacking a pretty good guy.

Jeff

[Exhibitman]

I don't buy your premise Brendan. This is a property ownership issue. Leon didn't steal the card. He bought it from a public auction. Morally speaking he is innocent. So the issue is which innocent person gets hurt. That's why we resort to the law. It is our way of handling these otherwise intractable issues.

[poorlydrawncat]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

I don't buy your premise Brendan. This is a property ownership issue. Leon didn't steal the card. He bought it from a public auction. Morally speaking he is innocent. So the issue is which innocent person gets hurt. That's why we resort to the law. It is our way of handling these otherwise intractable issues.

You're absolutely right! Owning a piece of stolen property is not morally wrong if you don't know it's stolen. But I think a lot of people would agree that if you are in possession of a stolen item, regardless of how you acquired it, that item should be returned. Or at least I think that, maybe you disagree, which is totally within your right.

But whatever the law decides wont change my moral principle which states that stolen items should always be returned to their rightful owners. And I think there are people out there who would agree with me on that.

At the end of the day, we don't know at this point what Leon's plans for the card are, so it's too early to judge anyone. I was addressing the people who were trying to find ways around returning the card, which at this point I am comfortable judging as being the morally wrong way to approach this situation.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

I don't buy your premise Brendan. This is a property ownership issue. Leon didn't steal the card. He bought it from a public auction. Morally speaking he is innocent. So the issue is which innocent person gets hurt. That's why we resort to the law. It is our way of handling these otherwise intractable issues.

I'm curious, you're suggesting that Leon is prepared to litigate this issue? Are you representing him? Is that a Dorskindian 'we' or a traditional 'we'?

[Greg Sonk]

Whatever did or didn't happen with Leon's card, it is incredibly disheartening to see a thread about one of the alleged grandest perpetrators of fraud in the hobby degenerate into something so minor in comparison.

So many of the same people bickering in this thread about the most quibbling of differences profess to have an interest in cleaning up the hobby, yet when presented with the choice of spending 20 minutes writing a letter that may make an actual difference or wasting it away arguing here, there seems to be no shortage of those that choose the latter.

Now I certainly don't know Mr. Lichtman, but by all accounts he seems to be an excellent lawyer. I certainly also know absolutely nothing substantive about the law other than to find an excellent lawyer and then follow his or her instructions. For those of us that are vehemently against writing a letter, what could the potential drawbacks be? Please note this is not a hypothetical question. I intend to write one myself as a bidder in his auctions unless some unforeseen consequence is presented.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

I don't buy your premise Brendan. This is a property ownership issue. Leon didn't steal the card. He bought it from a public auction. Morally speaking he is innocent. So the issue is which innocent person gets hurt. That's why we resort to the law. It is our way of handling these otherwise intractable issues.

I knew we served some socially useful function, just couldn't remember what it was. Thanks Adam.

[poorlydrawncat]

Originally Posted by ibuysportsephemera

Dude, you have no idea about who I am or what my principles are. Have you ever met Leon? Have you ever done business with him? I have, so at least I speak with a little bit of knowledge.

I knew when I made my post, it will get all of the Leon haters in a tizzy. I WILL not waste my time defending myself to faceless strangers staring at a computer screen. Have fun getting your kicks attacking a pretty good guy.

Jeff

You were saying it's wrong to be critical of Leon because he's been nice to you and runs a forum you like. That's fine that you believe that (no sarcasm), but I happen to disagree. Up until this incident I thought Leon was basically the most upstanding member of this hobby, I've had nothing but positive experiences with him either. I would have thought it a cold day in hell when I would side more with Nash than Leon...

But I disagree with his handling of this whole thing and I don't think it's fair to tell people not to criticize someone just because he's your friend or he's in charge of a forum. I would criticize the person in this situation regardless of whether or not it was Leon, and the fact that it was Leon actually made it more difficult for me to do so. But my principles are my principles and I will always try to apply them universally and fairly, even when it means applying them in ways that are hard for me.

I didn't think I was attacking you any more than you were attacking me, and I certainly don't feel attacked. This feels like a moral discussion to me... I didn't mean to make you feel personally attacked though, so I'm sorry. You're free to have your own opinions, I just like debating them

[wonkaticket]

Originally Posted by ibuysportsephemera

Let's remember who keeps this forum going.

Jeff

The countless collectors/members and advertisers. Not mention many members have been a part of this community before it was "Leon's Sandbox" as you call it. This community is that a community. If this was all about Leon it wouldn't be a community it would be a twitter or Facebook page.

Jeff FYI known Leon for years. Done business with him, driven him to shows, paid for dinners big and small, talked cards, politics you name it. He even sent Jeff Lichtman and I picture of the cover of the catalog to get our feedback. This isn't some cyber bully picking on the great Leon this a fellow collector calling him out. Perhaps I could have done this in private but that's hypocritical of me. If I can call out others here why should he get a pass. I'm not saying he's an evil person just think he dropped the ball here instead of manning up he's resorted to name calling and gathering his minions.

Bottom line a few weeks ago I was a good guy, and potential bidder for him. The minute I called out this card. As well as the hypocrisy of taking gifts from Bill Mastro while claiming to do more about fraud than 99.9% of the collecting community.

That day I became and "idiot", sorry if I feel Leon's tag line of "if you do wrong in this hobby I'm going to be your worst enemy" sounds better than "if you do wrong in this hobby I'm going to be your worst enemy, unless there are gift bags".

Cheers,

John