Bill Mastro's upcoming sentencing

[glchen]

A lot of people are really beating up on Leon in this thread. I think from his history on the board, and his past actions, he really deserves the benefit of the doubt here. Give him time to sort through this. I know a few years ago, I purchased a raw Butterfinger Babe Ruth ad card from a reputable consignor on ebay. I thought the item was authentic, so I didn't even bother sending it in for authentication for over a year. Finally, I decided to send the card into Beckett, more for protection than to check if it were authentic, and I was very surprised when it came back as counterfeit. The consignor and I agreed to have Leon mediate this, and Leon was very generous with his time in working with the Beckett folks to take another look at the card. The card was still determined to be fake, and Leon agreed with the assessment since he had owned a genuine one of these in the past. Leon had no obligation whatsoever to get involved in this matter, yet he did, and helped me a lot in this matter. (I was also very satisfied with the refund that I received from the consignor after I returned this card also.) The point is that Leon really does a lot for a lot of collectors in the hobby without asking anything to be publicized or anything. I really think he's deserves and has earned the time to let this matter run the course before people pass their judgment here.

[calvindog]

How does a card with an NYPL stamp which means it's clearly owned by the NYPL "leave the library under normal conditions?" What are such "normal conditions"? Like it grew legs and walked out?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by calvindog

How does a card with an NYPL stamp which means it's clearly owned by the NYPL "leave the library under normal conditions?" What are such "normal conditions"? Like it grew legs and walked out?

Like it was possibly sold to use the money for other reasons. Now about all of those card doctors you represent. Why don't we talk about them for awhile?

[poorlydrawncat]

Originally Posted by Leon

Like it was possibly sold to use the money for other reasons. Now about all of those card doctors you represent. Why don't we talk about them for awhile?

Before we change the subject, just answer me this:

If the NYPL does not have record of the sale, would you return the card?

And if there's other circumstances I'm not considering by all means bring them up.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Leon

Like it was possibly sold to use the money for other reasons. Now about all of those card doctors you represent. Why don't we talk about them for awhile?

You mean my representation of people in accordance with the Constitution and federal laws? You know I don't conspire with clients to commit fraud in the hobby. And you also know I'm not going to breach a privilege to discuss what my clients say to me.

So let me get this straight:

Dewolf is a "vile pri*k"
Wonka is an "idiot"
I'm a "bold-faced [sic] liar."

What does that make you? Why don't you just acknowledge legitimate criticism instead of attacking everyone who dares to speak the obvious? No one has it out for you here. There's no "crusade" against you. Why such increasingly irrational responses?

[Leon]

You sound like a broken record. Like a little kid "what does that make you".....really? Why do you defend card doctors when you are allegedly leading the charge against them? Uh, I think that would make you a hypocrite.

Originally Posted by calvindog

You mean my representation of people in accordance with the Constitution and federal laws? You know I don't conspire with clients to commit fraud in the hobby. And you also know I'm not going to breach a privilege to discuss what my clients say to me.

So let me get this straight:

DeWolf is a "vile pri*k"
Wonka is an "idiot"
I'm a "bold-faced [sic] liar."

What does that make you?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Leon

You sound like a broken record. Like a little kid "what does that make you".....really? Why do you defend card doctors when you are allegedly leading the charge against them? Uh, I think that would make you a hypocrite.

Uh you have no idea the circumstances of my representation. Just like you had no idea that your card belonged to the NYPL.

[Leon]

As I want to move onto more positive things, and this is being figured out, I won't be posting in this inquisition thread anymore. The auction item will be updated if it is left in and all bidders will be notified and given an option to withdraw their bids given the new information. That is all for now. Thanks for the support I have gotten publicly and privately. And to any naysayers, I am sorry you feel that way.

[poorlydrawncat]

Originally Posted by calvindog

How does a card with an NYPL stamp which means it's clearly owned by the NYPL "leave the library under normal conditions?" What are such "normal conditions"? Like it grew legs and walked out?

It's unlikely, but like Leon mentioned sometimes libraries will sell items when they need the money. But there would be a record of that sale, and unless the NYPL has one, I think there's no doubt the card is stolen...

[Econteachert205]

I worked at a museumthat had items "donated" all the time. More like trash drop off, old magazines, farm equipment etc. when I worked there one of the jobs was to de accession items. We had an antiquated cataloging system ( this was 2004) and not all items were catalogued. We had volunteers who would put things into storage without properly cataloging.

I'm sure that now the nypl has their act together, being a larger institution than the one I worked at, however in the past, I'm sure the same problems as I described with books occurred. Here are a few thoughts on the item in question.

1. I feel it is unlikely that even if there were multiple cards in the nypl collection one would be deaccessioned or sold without clear recording, even 30 years ago.

2. It seems likely that the stamp is from a library collection, and if it was sold legally, it seems unlikely the new owner would chance damaging the card to remove the stamp.

3. I trust Leon that he bought it after whatever happened. He is the one who stands to lose large here. If he suspected the card was taken from a library collection he would have sold it privately, not put it with scans on a major auction house where this super rare card, one of a handful, could be scrutinized in such a way.

4. The FBI and Nypl will be made aware, Leon stands to lose a lot on the card and this whole ordeal will likely be no fun whatsoever. If it were my card I'd be sick. He's been straight forward about addressing the concerns here.

[wonkaticket]

You can call it beating up on him, a witch hunt or an inquisition. I call it being disappointed. The facts are Leon has/had a card that he knew full well had potential issues. He was made aware of these issues long ago by qualified people with nothing to gain. He's a person of standing in our hobby and someone who touts their honesty, integrity and dedication to this hobby. A person that demands people to stand behind their comments.

Regardless of the laws regarding ownership, legal issues, innocence or guilt. I find it disappointing and hard to believe. That almost a year after these issues were brought to his attention he never noticed or looked for a stamp connecting this card to the NYPL.

I'm sorry but if the Federal Bureau of Investigation takes an item from my collection for review as potentially stolen. From that day forward that would be the focus of my collecting world to clear the misunderstanding and resolve any questions around my item long before it ever hit an auction block. To say after it's at auction "oh yeah now that you mention it I do see the mark, wish I had seen that before" seems dishonest at the worst end of the spectrum and extremely naive at the other end.

But I'm an idiot for seeing it this way that's been clearly pointed out, so this idiot will let this auction pass him by.

[trobba]

If the card was sold legally, why would someone go through the trouble/effort/risk to remove the seal from the card?

I don't really get it, the close up scan shows enough indisputable proof that the word "library" was there as well as other marks to remove any doubt from my (completely unbiased) mind that it was the NYPL mark.

I think Heritage's caveat of "a collector stamp or the mark of some retailer" is pretty lame and touches, if not crosses, the border of stretching the truth.

I don't collect these and knew nothing of all this until I read this post, but it sure seems to me the card has major provenance issues and until the truth is completely resolved have trouble seeing it up for public auction. Why not pull it and do all the research? If it proves clean it will only increase the value when up again, instead of having a shroud of guilt lingering that will only taint the whole sitchie...

Seems like there are enough questions to slow everything down and get it right.

Rob G

[Peter_Spaeth]

Based on the chronology presented, I infer that the FBI took the card from Leon, examined it, and returned it to him. What if they told him they had no reason to believe the card was stolen? (I don't know that to be the case, just drawing possible inferences.) Why could Leon not reasonably rely on that assurance, at least until other information was presented, which appears to have happened for the first time yesterday? It seems to me the criticism here involves some degree of hindsight, and some assumptions that may or may not be true.

In any event, hopefully this will reach a resolution soon.

[Wildfireschulte]

The way Heritage and Luckey handled this card has lowered both companies from the status of "esteemed auction house" to the same level as the eBay hucksters in my mind. Over and over we've seen the smart people on this board bust some of the big-name auction houses over fraudulent descriptions. Keep it up guys!

[chernieto]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It seems to me the criticism here involves some degree of hindsight, and some assumptions that may or may not be true.

Seems to be a very common theme to a many of these threads.
Add in some aggressive lawyer(s) who insult anyone who takes up a stance against their assumptions.
Over and over the presumption of innocence until proven guilty seems absent.
It sure can take the joy out of Mudville, in my humble opinion
Paul Chern

[packs]

I have no opinion on anyone involved or what is right or wrong. I'm just posting about logistics of the NYPL making a deacquisition.

The last time the NYPL made its collection available for sale was in 2005, when it sold some items from it's art collection. It was big news when it happened and is readily searchable. However, I can't find any information on them holding an auction for pieces from their baseball card collection.