Bill Mastro's upcoming sentencing

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Leon

I venture to guess I do more than 99.9% of the people in the hobby (you are right there too) to weed out fraud. I can't stand it. Not sure if you have ever seen where I have said, "if you are doing something bad in the hobby I will be your worst friend", but I have said it many times. I have helped numerous authorities to work fraud cases in the hobby....Secret Service, Dept. Of Homeland Security, Postal Agents, Postal Inspectors, local authorities etc.....for various reasons I am not writing this one letter.....that is it.

Leon, you received a gift from the biggest fraud the hobby has ever known and you said it "was appreciated." And you made it clear on this thread that you were considering writing a letter in SUPPORT of Mastro. Doesn't sound like you're quite his "worst friend."

[Leon]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Leon, you received a gift from the biggest fraud the hobby has ever known and you said it "was appreciated." And you made it clear on this thread that you were considering writing a letter in SUPPORT of Mastro. Doesn't sound like you're quite his "worst friend."

As I said, I changed my mind. I suppose people can do that, right? I probably am not his worst friend. Maybe you are? I can't stand what he did but I can also separate what someone does from who they are. Those guys will pay for what they did. My letter, one way or the other, isn't going to change the plea deals. Did you write a letter?

And yes, I said it was appreciated but in retrospect, maybe not so much. That is why after today the few little things he sent I will no longer have.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Leon

As I said, I changed my mind. I suppose people can do that, right? I probably am not his worst friend. Maybe you are? I can't stand what he did but I can also separate what someone does from who they are. Those guys will pay for what they did. My letter, one way or the other, isn't going to change the plea deals. Did you write a letter?

And yes, I said it was appreciated but in retrospect, maybe not so much. That is why after today the few little things he sent I will no longer have.

Of course I'm writing a letter. And no one has ever said that writing a letter will change their plea deals. Where did you get that from? The judge has discretion at sentencing and many factors come into play including character letters about the defendant. You can be sure Bill will have dozens if not hundreds of letter supporting him and not discussing his fraud.

Lastly, of course people can change their minds. I've always appreciated how you changed your mind about Mike O'Keeffe, the NY Daily News reporter who you and others blasted for his purportedly unfair coverage of the Mastro fraud. And how you changed your mind about me after we bickered constantly out here years ago when I was loudly critical of Mastro and Allen -- and I was being roundly criticized for it.

And lastly, I'm not Bill Mastro's worst friend -- I was never his friend at all. Just his victim.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Of course I'm writing a letter. And no one has ever said that writing a letter will change their plea deals. Where did you get that from? The judge has discretion at sentencing and many factors come into play including character letters about the defendant. You can be sure Bill will have dozens if not hundreds of letter supporting him and not discussing his fraud.

Lastly, of course people can change their minds. I've always appreciated how you changed your mind about Mike O'Keeffe, the NY Daily News reporter who you and others blasted for his purportedly unfair coverage of the Mastro fraud. And how you changed your mind about me after we bickered constantly out here years ago when I was loudly critical of Mastro and Allen -- and I was being roundly criticized for it.

And lastly, I'm not Bill Mastro's worst friend -- I was never his friend at all. Just his victim.

and I always appreciate how half your clients are card doctors...but then that is how you make your money. The more bad people in the hobby the more you make. Do you give out business cards after these threads? Since I haven't done anything wrong in the hobby I guess I don't need a business card.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Leon

and I always appreciate how half your clients are card doctors...but then that is how you make your money. The more bad people in the hobby the more you make. Do you give out business cards after these threads? Since I haven't done anything wrong in the hobby I guess I don't need a business card.

How do you know that my clients haven't all cooperated with law enforcement in their investigation of fraud in the hobby? Certainly it's public record that I have represented people who have actually formally cooperated against fraudsters in the hobby.

As for me representing people in the hobby, it's a tiny fraction of my income. Half my clients? You're dreaming. And maybe you shouldn't be critical of what I do for a living because when you were shitting your pants last year you managed to pick up the phone and call me for free advice.

[autograf]

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by autograf

+1

What did I walk into ???

[Leon]

Maybe they all cooperated, I don't know.....great if they did. Half might have been too big of a number as you are right, I don't know all of your clients, only some of them. You are a good lawyer, I will give you that.

Originally Posted by calvindog

How do you know that my clients haven't all cooperated with law enforcement in their investigation of fraud in the hobby? Certainly it's public record that I have represented people who have actually formally cooperated against fraudsters in the hobby.

As for me representing people in the hobby, it's a tiny fraction of my income. Half my clients? You're dreaming. And maybe you shouldn't be critical of what I do for a living because when you were shitting your pants last year you managed to pick up the phone and call me for advice.

[Peter_Spaeth]

That people may have cooperated does not mean they themselves did not commit fraud, does it?

[aaron1050]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Lastly, of course people can change their minds. I've always appreciated how you changed your mind about Mike O'Keeffe, the NY Daily News reporter who you and others blasted for his purportedly unfair coverage of the Mastro fraud. And how you changed your mind about me after we bickered constantly out here years ago when I was loudly critical of Mastro and Allen -- and I was being roundly criticized for it.

Hey, Leon even reached out and unbanned me! That's good mind-changing.

In all seriousness, I think he's shown real growth in the last seven or eight years in terms of his ability to acknowledge the mountain of evidence (and common sense) against the Mastro/Legendary guys as sufficient to conclude they were crooks, but at the same time he obviously hits the same wall of mental disconnect (separate a person from their actions?) that drove him to so ferociously defend those guys in the first place.

Part of it, I would imagine, is personal relationships and part of it may be some psychological reasons that we'll never understand that contribute to a sort of selective blind spot that causes him to make seemingly incompatible and completely contradictory conclusions while he tried to overlook or explain away or compartmentalize they're bad deeds. I will agree though that even after all of this, it's like one step forward two steps backward to see that Leon was actually considering writing a letter in support of Mastro. Growth yes, but that's just crazy at this point in time (these guys are convicts now!) and goes to the point that we will never understand the psychology here and what drives the reasoning for his need to absolve these guys.

As far as the appropriateness of the penalties, I'm assuming that Mastro was completely cooperative with the feds, and that should warrant some leniency, but I think 7-10 years would have been more appropriate, not 30 months. And understanding just how hard it would be to determine and then distribute a restitution figure, it still would have been appropriate to add a $3M - $5M flat figure as additional punishment.

Otherwise, I'm just happy that these guys were proven to be the frauds they are and so overwhelmingly so -- by federal convictions, plea deals, and real jail time. It should close the books on a very dark episode in the hobby's history when so many were the unknowing victims of significant fraud that undercut what was supposed to be a "hobby".

[Peter_Spaeth]

Where do you get 7-10 years? According to the plea agreement the maximum for the offense is 5, as I read it anyhow (page 16). And where do you get 3-5 million? The plea agreement indicates that the government estimates the total fraud as less than $I million (page 17).

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Where do you get 7-10 years? According to the plea agreement the maximum for the offense is 5, as I read it anyhow (page 16). And where do you get 3-5 million? The plea agreement indicates that the government estimates the total fraud as less than $I million (page 17).

If you read what he wrote he said what he felt was appropriate, not what was in the plea agreement. And his comment about $3-5 million was relating to a penalty -- a fine -- and not restitution.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

If you read what he wrote he said what he felt was appropriate, not what was in the plea agreement. And his comment about $3-5 million was relating to a penalty -- a fine -- and not restitution.

According to the plea agreement again, the maximum fine is twice the gross gain. And obviously I know how to read, my point is that "appropriate" has to be defined in terms of what the law provides.

[wonkaticket]

Leon. I'm spinning things unfairly huh? Let me get this straight.

Were you or were you not made aware by the Feds that this card could have been from the NYPL?

Were you or were you not discussing this card and it's possible NYPL/Mastro connection with Scott in the video?

After the Feds reviewed your card what was their determination? All clear etc.

Did you make any attempt after the card was returned to investigate the possible NYPL connection on your own prior to offering for sale? Keeping in mind it took Chris above about 30 seconds to raise serious doubts based off a few scans at a glance. If so what conclusion did you come to?

Why was the auction description so clear in listing "library stamp" as the very first thing the mark could be if this is all "new" news to you and was non-issue prior to being listed for sale?

Did you or did you not for years support Bill and Doug and just recently accept and paise gifts from Bill? Only to later after being told how hypocritical that was to announce the gifts return.

I'm not sure how I'm spinning anything I've brought up in this thread. Seems I've been pretty direct. Leon if this set of events above was directed at any other party you would be raising eyebrows also. Tell me you wouldn't.

Sorry but I fail to see a bigger grand picture here. It seems like the same story. Item with potential known issues is listed for sale along with a carefully worded description. Then when it's under the spotlight and questions come up the seller and auction are shocked and surprised they just weren't aware. Like I said the story never changes just the cast....happens to have youu as player this time that's all.

John

[Leon]

John
Keep spinning and I am not going to be a part of your charade. As I said I didn't do anything wrong. If you think I did, great. I didn't. I didn't have to bend over backwards to work with the authorities on this and am in the middle of getting it cleared up now (with their help). ...I won't respond to anymore of your drivel but will report back after the investigation is over. thanks

Originally Posted by wonkaticket

Leon. I'm spinning things unfairly huh? Let me get this straight.

Were you or were you not made aware by the Feds that this card could have been from the NYPL?

Were you or were you not discussing this card and it's possible NYPL/Mastro connection with Scott in the video?

After the Feds reviewed your card what was their determination? All clear etc.

Did you make any attempt after the card was returned to investigate the possible NYPL connection on your own prior to offering for sale? Keeping in mind it took Chris above about 30 seconds to raise serious doubts based off a few scans at a glance. If so what conclusion did you come to?

Why was the auction description so clear in listing "library stamp" as the very first thing the mark could be if this is all "new" news to you and was non-issue prior to being listed for sale?

Did you or did you not for years support Bill and Doug and just recently accept and paise gifts from Bill? Only to later after being told how hypocritical that was to announce the gifts return.

I'm not sure how I'm spinning anything I've brought up in this thread. Seems I've been pretty direct. Leon if this set of events above was directed at any other party you would be raising eyebrows also. Tell me you wouldn't.

Sorry but I fail to see a bigger grand picture here. It seems like the same story. Item with potential known issues is listed for sale along with a carefully worded description. Then when it's under the spotlight and questions come up the seller and auction are shocked and surprised they just weren't aware. Like I said the story never changes just the cast....happens to have youu as player this time that's all.

John