Card Doctor haters please respond

[frankbmd]

Breaking News

[EvilKing00]

I can tell you having and origional classic car, imo, is better thsn a restored one

[bxb]

I wonder how many of our "original" high grade vintage cards are already touched up, but we can't tell and never will.

[packs]

As was said, there is only one painting and it is meant to be displayed. So I think we can all agree that a restored painting is going to be preferable to look at than a fading, hole ridden and unrecognizable work of art will be. The Last Supper is barely original. The rest has been repainted over centuries over and over again. Also everyone hated it when it was painted, so it was nearly bombed out during WWII. Do you want to look at what we have today or what it would look like on its own?

Cards are totally different. For the average vintage card, there will be thousands and maybe hundreds of thousands of them, each one more or less exactly the same as the last. So why would anyone prefer a faux, touched up version of a card that comes in such a large edition when you can get a real, original one any time you want?

[ksabet]

So it seems as though as long as it is disclosed people don't have a problem with restoration.


I may be in the minority but I think I would rather have a clean, bright restored Wagner with a AUTH next to it than a dirty wrinkled stained 1.5.

[PM770]

Originally Posted by ksabet

So it seems as though as long as it is disclosed people don't have a problem with restoration.

I think this hits it. The problem is if you are cracking out a PSA 4 having it doctored/restored and resubmitting it for an 8, you are by definition not disclosing the fact the card has been restored. Otherwise, why it be necessary to have it slabbed in the first place?

[ksabet]

Updated with a poll

[thecatspajamas]

Originally Posted by ksabet

So it seems as though as long as it is disclosed people don't have a problem with restoration.

I don't know if I would go that far, but at least if you disclose the restoration, people can make a decision based on all the information. If you don't disclose the restoration, you're basically lying by omission. Whatever an individual's feelings on restoration may be, people generally have a problem with being lied to.

[drcy]

deleted.

[drcy]

My ethics rule for restoration is it should never be done strictly for financial reasons. If someone removes stains or repairs a tear to card to make it look nicer to them or has a deteriorating poster professionally resotored and deacidified in the name of conservation, those are non-financial reasons. The restoration may raise the financial value in the process, but the motivations were in major part not financial. However, if you trim or recolor a card strictly for re-sale/financial reasons, I catalog that as unethical. Purely financial considerations (aka altering a century old artifact only in the name of making $) is not a valid reason to alter or restore a card.

That's my opinion. And as I tell to non-collectors, one thing I've learned about the hobby is that money really is the root of all evil. Why do people in the hobby forge, counterfeit, deceptively trim and intentionally misrepresent?-- for money. That's why I think purely monetary reasons for doing something should be looked at with a skeptical eye.

And, of course, if you alter or restore a card, it has to be disclosed.

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by ksabet

So it seems as though as long as it is disclosed people don't have a problem with restoration.


I may be in the minority but I think I would rather have a clean, bright restored Wagner with a AUTH next to it than a dirty wrinkled stained 1.5.

And IMHO, that is where the hobby will go with regard to rare/significant cards, only the "altered" designation will be replaced with "restored." The difference, before you ask, is craftsmanship. You can take a classic car in poor condition and make it look a heck of a lot better with bailing wire and bondo, then add paint to conceal the low caliber changes, i.e., quick and dirty alterations. That would be "altered." In stark contrast, take the same car and weld in new, old stock (NOS, for the unitiated) floor pans, trunk pans, quarter panels, etc., blending the welds into the original metal, replace worn suspension bushings and other parts, rebuild the motor, and apply a quality paint job. This is "restored." The latter requires craftsmanship, while the former involves an intent to deceive.

I have a 1929 Kashin R316 Mel Ott rookie in SGC poor condition (but extraordinarily well centered for this card) which I believe will eventually be a very good candidate for restoration, with full disclosure (good ones seem to be drying up rather quickly).

Just my two cents,

Larry

[Peter_Spaeth]

IMO as long as people who do this for a living can get a significant portion of altered/"restored" cards into numbered holders, there is no incentive other than honesty (which by definition they lack) to make disclosure.

[Beastmode]

Originally Posted by bxb

I wonder how many of our "original" high grade vintage cards are already touched up, but we can't tell and never will.

I'm surprised there are so many posts of pre-war collectors stating that do not care if a card has been altered as long as it's slabbed and graded.

Between this thread and the other one, many posts have the opinion that altered pre-war cards carry the same value as long as they are undetectable and slabbed.

What happens when PSA or TPG's come up with the technology to determine if existing slabbed cards have been altered in any manner? That technology is coming, and it may not be the TPG's that do this. I think you'll care then if your pre-war cards have been altered.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I don't believe for a minute any of it is "undetectable." See Steve B's posts. There is a lot of wishful thinking and rationalization going on. Or complicity.

[Beastmode]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I don't believe for a minute any of it is "undetectable." See Steve B's posts. There is a lot of wishful thinking and rationalization going on. Or complicity.

Understood. Still don't have an answer to this: Do the TPG's currently have the technology to detect the any type of altering; chemical/water/fractional trimming/etc and to what level? What CAN'T the TPG's detect?

thanks

[1880nonsports]

he stated the graders often don't use any sort of equipment - relying on their visual inspection, visceral assessment, and "experience" to grade and "authenticate" a card. Some fairly detailed analysis in a couple of prior threads here that extrapolated between the number of submissions, the number of graders (quite a few of them having just graduated college and retaining the cartophilic experience of their chronological ages), and the number of hours in a week. Like the actual number of minutes actually played in a football game - it was less than the number of functioning fingers on a shop teachers hand.
Not an argument about grading companies as I'm sure to some degree there's a relationship between the number of submissions one receives and the number of (hopefully) qualified graders. At the end of the day each of the TPG's are a business and as such look to profits - likely the other major TPG's (SGC BVG) follow similar patterns - although the dreamer in me wishes that weren't the case. Cards don't go to "era" specialists and some issues are just obscure or have variables that require knowledge of the issue itself. I would guess that for the most part the same amount of time is spent on a second year Reggie Jackson as is spent on a higher tier card like the ones shown above - even if it was appreciably more - there are seemingly de facto limits to not only how far they CAN GO - but also how far they WANT to go.
Water. Mostly inert and used across the board by early collectors to excise treasured cardboard renderings from scrapbook prisons so they may enjoyed in their existing totality. I have never soaked a card to remove a stain nor have I ever asked anyone to do it. In fact I can't even think of a time I've ASKED anyone if my card has been soaked. I have asked about the condition of the back of a card which would naturally include excess paper as well as paper loss. I have soaked quite a few cards - prefer not to - as I'm a bit like the sorcerer's apprentice and pigpen rolled into one. From all I've read combined with my "on the road" experiences the use of water CURRENTLY reflects an accepted practice within the hobby. Rubbing off a careless tobacco remnant seems fine to me as well but I'm against anything else being done to a card. Soaking a card to remove stains slippery - to remove pen marks and such - not good. Using anything but water - not for me. I would call anyone who does any form of RESTORATION a card doctor.
My desire for the personal freedoms I believe people are entitled to unfortunately allows for a "card doctor" to offer their services and for people to seek them out. Hate that there are people who would abuse the process but this is how I view things on a core level.
It's likely that water does affect the fibers themselves found in card stock as well as affecting the subsequent reactions and resultant foxing or seepage of extraneous minute particles of dust and dander into and around such fibers. I'm old and I have handled quite a few 19th century cards that I could document which were soaked more than 50 years ago and others likely before that. Other than residual staining depending on the glue or absorbency exhibited by the paper itself - I can discern no differences to the structure or "essence" of those cards.
What needs to be considered are cards that have been entombed. I'm no scientist but the cases themselves are not inert and besides the cardstock itself there are inks of unknown origin. By themselves without the circulation of air I suggest over time there will be visual and/or discernable structural defects - and it seems plausible that water might exacerbate and accelerate such decline.
How long before that happens would be a pure guess but there has to be some degree of decline of any paper over time. We are only temporary keepers of these things we chose to preserve for whatever our motivation.
For me there lies the conflict - one I've resolved to align myself with the prevailing (and convenient) acceptance of soaking - without it I'd have few cards to chase - as I already have wantlists nearly 20 years old. There's a limit as to how far my responsibility to the future goes in terms of preserving a card - at least my cards won't be lost to the near future - in a small way I have rescued them by the simple act of soaking them in water. They would still exist - just wouldn't get the attention if even only for the aesthetics of a paper encrusted verso. I suppose at that point the TPG's and hobby would get together to determine the amount of paper needed to be retained for the best grade.
It seems most hobbyists are against any other kind of doctoring - at least in public - Mr. Towle obviously gets his "customers" from somewhere - it's all been discussed before - the people predisposed to perpetrate deception and fraud will go to him or someone else.
Final aside in my usual run-on-stream-of-consciousness diatribe would be a true story about someone I'm friends with who collects rare 19th century cards of all types - a bit OT - but linked a little just the same. Over the years he has systematically colored in the edges of many of his mayo cards and other cards with full-bleed dark borders. He has some in displays (including a baseball field montage) and prefers the way they look without the worn white edging. His anal nature will never let him relinquish them in his lifetime - other than perhaps Betty White and my wicked step-mother no one will live forever (I would have said Dick Clark but....). Just a head's up that it's ALWAYS buyer beware - the provenance of our cards most often lost to time - any number of ways and any number of reasons things may not be as they seem. Probably a main reason even with their failings - like a guy who can't fix his own car or computer - a significant number of people need someone else's help for whatever reason and the TPG's have the product the consumer wants - warts and all. Hopefully the voices of educated consumers will begin to demand more accountability and more diligent examination of their cards - although in the past - response to simpler issues like the holders themselves has been quite slow.......

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 1880nonsports

he stated the graders often don't use any sort of equipment - relying on their visual inspection, visceral assessment, and "experience" to grade and "authenticate" a card. Some fairly detailed analysis in a couple of prior threads here that extrapolated between the number of submissions, the number of graders (quite a few of them having just graduated college and retaining the cartophilic experience of their chronological ages), and the number of hours in a week. Like the actual number of minutes actually played in a football game - it was less than the number of functioning fingers on a shop teachers hand.
Not an argument about grading companies as I'm sure to some degree there's a relationship between the number of submissions one receives and the number of (hopefully) qualified graders. At the end of the day each of the TPG's are a business and as such look to profits - likely the other major TPG's (SGC BVG) follow similar patterns - although the dreamer in me wishes that weren't the case. Cards don't go to "era" specialists and some issues are just obscure or have variables that require knowledge of the issue itself. I would guess that for the most part the same amount of time is spent on a second year Reggie Jackson as is spent on a higher tier card like the ones shown above - even if it was appreciably more - there are seemingly de facto limits to not only how far they CAN GO - but also how far they WANT to go.
Water. Mostly inert and used across the board by early collectors to excise treasured cardboard renderings from scrapbook prisons so they may enjoyed in their existing totality. I have never soaked a card to remove a stain nor have I ever asked anyone to do it. In fact I can't even think of a time I've ASKED anyone if my card has been soaked. I have asked about the condition of the back of a card which would naturally include excess paper as well as paper loss. I have soaked quite a few cards - prefer not to - as I'm a bit like the sorcerer's apprentice and pigpen rolled into one. From all I've read combined with my "on the road" experiences the use of water CURRENTLY reflects an accepted practice within the hobby. Rubbing off a careless tobacco remnant seems fine to me as well but I'm against anything else being done to a card. Soaking a card to remove stains slippery - to remove pen marks and such - not good. Using anything but water - not for me. I would call anyone who does any form of RESTORATION a card doctor.
My desire for the personal freedoms I believe people are entitled to unfortunately allows for a "card doctor" to offer their services and for people to seek them out. Hate that there are people who would abuse the process but this is how I view things on a core level.
It's likely that water does affect the fibers themselves found in card stock as well as affecting the subsequent reactions and resultant foxing or seepage of extraneous minute particles of dust and dander into and around such fibers. I'm old and I have handled quite a few 19th century cards that I could document which were soaked more than 50 years ago and others likely before that. Other than residual staining depending on the glue or absorbency exhibited by the paper itself - I can discern no differences to the structure or "essence" of those cards.
What needs to be considered are cards that have been entombed. I'm no scientist but the cases themselves are not inert and besides the cardstock itself there are inks of unknown origin. By themselves without the circulation of air I suggest over time there will be visual and/or discernable structural defects - and it seems plausible that water might exacerbate and accelerate such decline.
How long before that happens would be a pure guess but there has to be some degree of decline of any paper over time. We are only temporary keepers of these things we chose to preserve for whatever our motivation.
For me there lies the conflict - one I've resolved to align myself with the prevailing (and convenient) acceptance of soaking - without it I'd have few cards to chase - as I already have wantlists nearly 20 years old. There's a limit as to how far my responsibility to the future goes in terms of preserving a card - at least my cards won't be lost to the near future - in a small way I have rescued them by the simple act of soaking them in water. They would still exist - just wouldn't get the attention if even only for the aesthetics of a paper encrusted verso. I suppose at that point the TPG's and hobby would get together to determine the amount of paper needed to be retained for the best grade.
It seems most hobbyists are against any other kind of doctoring - at least in public - Mr. Towle obviously gets his "customers" from somewhere - it's all been discussed before - the people predisposed to perpetrate deception and fraud will go to him or someone else.
Final aside in my usual run-on-stream-of-consciousness diatribe would be a true story about someone I'm friends with who collects rare 19th century cards of all types - a bit OT - but linked a little just the same. Over the years he has systematically colored in the edges of many of his mayo cards and other cards with full-bleed dark borders. He has some in displays (including a baseball field montage) and prefers the way they look without the worn white edging. His anal nature will never let him relinquish them in his lifetime - other than perhaps Betty White and my wicked step-mother no one will live forever (I would have said Dick Clark but....). Just a head's up that it's ALWAYS buyer beware - the provenance of our cards most often lost to time - any number of ways and any number of reasons things may not be as they seem. Probably a main reason even with their failings - like a guy who can't fix his own car or computer - a significant number of people need someone else's help for whatever reason and the TPG's have the product the consumer wants - warts and all. Hopefully the voices of educated consumers will begin to demand more accountability and more diligent examination of their cards - although in the past - response to simpler issues like the holders themselves has been quite slow.......

Very informative and well-thought post. I, too, would have thought most people were opposed to anything beyond water, or perhaps erasing a very light pencil mark. But I am not sure if that is the case any more. We now have a whole industry based on trying to get stuff by third party graders, and if it's successful, I'm not sure many people really care.

[Beastmode]

Originally Posted by 1880nonsports

he stated the graders often don't use any sort of equipment - relying on their visual inspection, visceral assessment, and "experience" to grade and "authenticate" a card. Some fairly detailed analysis in a couple of prior threads here that extrapolated between the number of submissions, the number of graders (quite a few of them having just graduated college and retaining the cartophilic experience of their chronological ages), and the number of hours in a week. Like the actual number of minutes actually played in a football game - it was less than the number of functioning fingers on a shop teachers hand.
Not an argument about grading companies as I'm sure to some degree there's a relationship between the number of submissions one receives and the number of (hopefully) qualified graders. At the end of the day each of the TPG's are a business and as such look to profits - likely the other major TPG's (SGC BVG) follow similar patterns - although the dreamer in me wishes that weren't the case. Cards don't go to "era" specialists and some issues are just obscure or have variables that require knowledge of the issue itself. I would guess that for the most part the same amount of time is spent on a second year Reggie Jackson as is spent on a higher tier card like the ones shown above - even if it was appreciably more - there are seemingly de facto limits to not only how far they CAN GO - but also how far they WANT to go.
Water. Mostly inert and used across the board by early collectors to excise treasured cardboard renderings from scrapbook prisons so they may enjoyed in their existing totality. I have never soaked a card to remove a stain nor have I ever asked anyone to do it. In fact I can't even think of a time I've ASKED anyone if my card has been soaked. I have asked about the condition of the back of a card which would naturally include excess paper as well as paper loss. I have soaked quite a few cards - prefer not to - as I'm a bit like the sorcerer's apprentice and pigpen rolled into one. From all I've read combined with my "on the road" experiences the use of water CURRENTLY reflects an accepted practice within the hobby. Rubbing off a careless tobacco remnant seems fine to me as well but I'm against anything else being done to a card. Soaking a card to remove stains slippery - to remove pen marks and such - not good. Using anything but water - not for me. I would call anyone who does any form of RESTORATION a card doctor.
My desire for the personal freedoms I believe people are entitled to unfortunately allows for a "card doctor" to offer their services and for people to seek them out. Hate that there are people who would abuse the process but this is how I view things on a core level.
It's likely that water does affect the fibers themselves found in card stock as well as affecting the subsequent reactions and resultant foxing or seepage of extraneous minute particles of dust and dander into and around such fibers. I'm old and I have handled quite a few 19th century cards that I could document which were soaked more than 50 years ago and others likely before that. Other than residual staining depending on the glue or absorbency exhibited by the paper itself - I can discern no differences to the structure or "essence" of those cards.
What needs to be considered are cards that have been entombed. I'm no scientist but the cases themselves are not inert and besides the cardstock itself there are inks of unknown origin. By themselves without the circulation of air I suggest over time there will be visual and/or discernable structural defects - and it seems plausible that water might exacerbate and accelerate such decline.
How long before that happens would be a pure guess but there has to be some degree of decline of any paper over time. We are only temporary keepers of these things we chose to preserve for whatever our motivation.
For me there lies the conflict - one I've resolved to align myself with the prevailing (and convenient) acceptance of soaking - without it I'd have few cards to chase - as I already have wantlists nearly 20 years old. There's a limit as to how far my responsibility to the future goes in terms of preserving a card - at least my cards won't be lost to the near future - in a small way I have rescued them by the simple act of soaking them in water. They would still exist - just wouldn't get the attention if even only for the aesthetics of a paper encrusted verso. I suppose at that point the TPG's and hobby would get together to determine the amount of paper needed to be retained for the best grade.
It seems most hobbyists are against any other kind of doctoring - at least in public - Mr. Towle obviously gets his "customers" from somewhere - it's all been discussed before - the people predisposed to perpetrate deception and fraud will go to him or someone else.
Final aside in my usual run-on-stream-of-consciousness diatribe would be a true story about someone I'm friends with who collects rare 19th century cards of all types - a bit OT - but linked a little just the same. Over the years he has systematically colored in the edges of many of his mayo cards and other cards with full-bleed dark borders. He has some in displays (including a baseball field montage) and prefers the way they look without the worn white edging. His anal nature will never let him relinquish them in his lifetime - other than perhaps Betty White and my wicked step-mother no one will live forever (I would have said Dick Clark but....). Just a head's up that it's ALWAYS buyer beware - the provenance of our cards most often lost to time - any number of ways and any number of reasons things may not be as they seem. Probably a main reason even with their failings - like a guy who can't fix his own car or computer - a significant number of people need someone else's help for whatever reason and the TPG's have the product the consumer wants - warts and all. Hopefully the voices of educated consumers will begin to demand more accountability and more diligent examination of their cards - although in the past - response to simpler issues like the holders themselves has been quite slow.......

Wow. Are your previous 656 posts this long? Obsoletely stunning and eloquently spoken.

When the technology arrives to eliminate any ambiguity to the alteration of any card, there will be a demand for that service. Certainly on big dollar cards that are predisposed to alternations (pre-war). That hypothetical flip will create immediate demand for submissions of previously slabbed unaltered cards. It will not be a cheap flip (this is not an efficiency of grading game), but the upside for the card owner is enormous.

It's a back door way of identifying the alternated cards, because those cards will not be submitted (assuming most owners know their cards are altered as discussed in this thread; and they don't care either) Even if those altered cards were submitted, they wouldn't pass and would remain in the old slab. In essence, the old flips will assumed to be altered, since they have not been "certified" unaltered.

And when the market gains traction, buyers will de-value the old flips and emphasize the "certified unaltered" flip. The way it should be.

If you want a similar example; see PWCC's certificate. PWCC is not only identifying superbly graded cards, they are identifying ones that aren't (no certificate).

[ksabet]

Originally Posted by Beastmode

Wow. Are your previous 656 posts this long? Obsoletely stunning and eloquently spoken.

If you want a similar example; see PWCC's certificate. PWCC is not only identifying superbly graded cards, they are identifying ones that aren't (no certificate).

cringe