Bill Mastro's upcoming sentencing

[Peter_Spaeth]

Kenny that's fine, by all means write the letter, I didn't mean to suggest it wasn't appropriate, just that I personally was not enthused for the reasons stated. But relatedly, I would be interested in your view on this, which I haven't fully thought through myself. Suppose all the evidence you had for trial is what you have now from the public record, namely Mastro's admissions. You don't get bidding records, discovery, etc. Do you think as a private plaintiff you can win on a claim that YOU were defrauded? Is there enough to draw that inference under a clear and convincing evidence standard, or even under a preponderance standard? And if you think yes, based on destruction of evidence or whatever rationale, what are your damages, how would you calculate them?

[ullmandds]

I wrote my letter...took maybe 20 minutes in front of the tv.

Anyone who has ever bid on a baseball card in an auction has a duty to write a letter...be it ebay, Goodwin, REA, Legendary...any one. Unless you like giving money to crooks that is.

We all have a beef in this fight. Don't be lazy!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

I wrote my letter...took maybe 20 minutes in front of the tv.

Anyone who has ever bid on a baseball card in an auction has a duty to write a letter...be it ebay, Goodwin, REA, Legendary...any one. Unless you like giving money to crooks that is.

We all have a beef in this fight. Don't be lazy!

I personally don't want to write a letter in circumstances where I have no strong basis to believe I am a direct victim. That doesn't make me lazy, and I don't see why I have a duty. I could make the same argument about any crime that affects people broadly. Should I write letters every time some financial fraudster is sentenced? It certainly COULD have affected me in some way.

[ullmandds]

That's your prerogative Peter. I won my former m101-6 ruth from legendary in aug 12'...and there's a chance I was shilled.

A handful of auction houses have admitted to shill bidding in the past...in addition to the nonsense on ebay...chances are you've won a card from one of these houses I'd bet!

If you don't think Bill Mastro should be able to walk away from this virtually scott free without paying retribution or doing serious time...DON'T DO ANYTHING.

If you think he should pay a price for his indiscretions...maybe be made an example of...write a letter.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I feel much more strongly about the card doctors who will never face justice than about whether Mastro gets a few extra months or not. To me, the damage they have inflicted, and continue to inflict, is much more significant than Mastro and all the other houses running people up. I don't condone it, and yes it sucks and the guilty should be punished, but to fixate on that to the exclusion of a worse problem is to my mind myopic.

[calvindog]

Peter, you've contrarianed yourself into a pretzel.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Peter, you've contrarianed yourself into a pretzel.

Well you set an example for me, Jeff.

Edited to add

[Kenny Cole]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Kenny that's fine, by all means write the letter, I didn't mean to suggest it wasn't appropriate, just that I personally was not enthused for the reasons stated. But relatedly, I would be interested in your view on this, which I haven't fully thought through myself. Suppose all the evidence you had for trial is what you have now from the public record, namely Mastro's admissions. You don't get bidding records, discovery, etc. Do you think as a private plaintiff you can win on a claim that YOU were defrauded? Is there enough to draw that inference under a clear and convincing evidence standard, or even under a preponderance standard? And if you think yes, based on destruction of evidence or whatever rationale, what are your damages, how would you calculate them?

I think it would largely depend on the judge and what he/she would let in. I'm not saying it would be an ideal case by any means, but I'm not sure it would be a loser either. You can prove fraud by circumstantial evidence and I don't necessarily have a problem doing that. I don't know why you think I wouldn't get discovery though. That seems kind of unrealistic. It would be fun to take a deposition where Mastro can't plead the 5th because he's already pled out and even if he does, you get to draw an adverse inference and talk to the jury about that in a civil case. Adverse inference from record destruction, adverse inference if he tries to plead the 5th, admissions that he shilled and cheated people -- I think the right jury might get irritated with that sort of stuff. We assert fraud in many of our cases, and I don't really think most juries distinguish, or even care, about the difference between clear and convincing and preponderance of the evidence. At least that's my experience.

If the conduct is bad, I really don't worry that much about damages. It's kind of like pleading punis. I'm not necessarily a huge fan of that because it causes you extra work and if the jury is mad enough to award them, I have always believed that they will find a place to stick them even if you don't ask for them. I'd throw out the number paid for whatever items the client bought, maybe show what they had sold for before, and fight about whether I had to quantify the non-economic stuff. I have only lost that once, and even then the judge said the number wouldn't come in when we tried the case. It settled, so I don't know if the judge would have stuck to his guns.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Oh you would get discovery of course, it was just a hypothetical about the current state of play and whether it's enough to conclude one was defrauded. I guess with my defense bias I think it's a bit speculative based on the current record but you make a good argument, as always.

[atx840]

This is some seriously sleazy stuff to read.....to me 10 years sound about right.

[ullmandds]

wow, Chris...crazy!!!! My letter went out in the mail today...I am surprised at the general lack of apathy regarding this and cleaning up this hobby in general.

It's very sad to me!

Sad indeed!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Yes, the email to the consignor about hitting it one more time and letting it go has been discussed here before.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

wow, Chris...crazy!!!! My letter went out in the mail today...I am surprised at the general lack of apathy regarding this and cleaning up this hobby in general.

It's very sad to me!

Sad indeed!

You mean general apathy, not lack of apathy. Maybe if Mastro had overcharged someone a dollar for shipping there would be more interest here.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by calvindog

You mean general apathy, not lack of apathy. Maybe if Mastro had overcharged someone a dollar for shipping there would be more interest here.

Or post #1,000,000 about a Wagner reprint on ebay.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by calvindog

You mean general apathy, not lack of apathy. Maybe if Mastro had overcharged someone a dollar for shipping there would be more interest here.

whatever!!!

[Rob D.]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

wow, Chris...crazy!!!! My letter went out in the mail today...I am surprised at the general lack of apathy regarding this and cleaning up this hobby in general.

It's very sad to me!

Sad indeed!

Sounds like someone needs a free dinner at the National to get his mind right. Go ahead, order the creme brulee.