Is snipe bidding killing the hobby?

[cfhofer]

Great comments/points! EBay provided (IMHO) the single biggest jolt to the sports memorabilia hobby in the last 30 years. While it may have accelerated the downfall of brick & mortar sport shops and local card shows, it had enough global accessibility to generate a true “market value” for our collectibles – while completely eliminating the middle man in the process.

Does snipe bidding establish a true "market value"? It is a flurry of independent single offers within the last 10 seconds of an auction. While it is almost foolish for a bidder to NOT snipe bid (as pointed out above), the seller is forced to play a game of “Russian roulette”. Now some sports collectibles (vintage cards instantly come to mind) generate enough bids that a seller typically makes out ok. But for vintage sports memorabilia it is a total crapshoot on eBay.

Is it a coincidence the high quality vintage sports memorabilia has dried up on eBay over the last few years? Sure an occasional antique dealer puts up a cool piece, but those are few and far between. It seems that more and more high quality pieces are making their way to a plethora of sports auction sites instead – which has reestablished the middle man that eBay helped eliminate. Has the hobby now come full circle?

Great discussion this morning!!

[hcv123]

1) I agree with all the points made above related to the buyer side. I almost always snipe.
2) As a seller - for regularly traded items where a market value is easily established, I believe there is not too much risk that a seller takes on.
3) For more thinly traded items or should I "feel like it" - I have the choice to set a minimum bid or reserve. Yes, statistically it chases some bidders away, but it also protects me.

[JoeDfan]

I almost always snipe on things I really want to add to the collection. For me I find that it prevents me from making emotional decisions at the last minute and overspending. I just enter the highest amount I am willing to pay and that is that.
Also, I have been in a few auctions where it was pretty clear there was some shills going down.

That said, I have lost a few bids with sniper, and then again, but I have gotten a few steals too.

[nolemmings]

I agree with others here about sniping, which has has been around from the beginning. I manually snipe unless there's something ending when I know I won't be able to bid; if it's something I want real bad and don't want to forget to bid; or, if multiple items are ending at the same time--then I use a free service (this is rare).

I probably shouldn't say this, but I often actually invite shilling in a way. Many times my placeholder bid is set at about 50% of what I actually would be willing to pay. I want there to be early interest on the off chance a seller is thinking of pulling the card for non-bidding and/or selling off-line at a "panic" price--obviously this would not apply to knowledgeable sellers. Anyway, I am hoping others bid up to my "max" and I don't care if it's shilled to get there--philosophically I wish the card would have been started at a higher price or a reserve set but I understand some sellers for whatever reason don't/won't do that. This let's seller know he won't get absolutely fleeced if it sells. When I get an outbid notice by email I then look to see if I think the interest is legitimate or I suspect shilling. Also, if that outbid notice comes real early after my bid, it signals in some sense that this card may draw real interest for the duration of the auction. In short, it's kind of a litmus test that makes me look at the auction more closely and consider whether this is something I really want and how hard I may have to fight for it with a late snipe. Obviously far from fool proof but makes things a little more interesting, for me anyway. Plus, it helps prevent me from kicking myself when I occasionally forget to bid in ebay auctions that ultimately sell for a small fraction of what I would have paid (it happens)--this way I could get a great deal or at least know I pushed someone else to pay closer to market value.

[cfhofer]

I do the exact same thing Todd (nolemmings). Thought I was the only one who did that!

[sporteq]

Sniping isn't a issue. Bidders that keep bumping up the price are IMO

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by sporteq

Sniping isn't a issue. Bidders that keep bumping up the price are IMO

+1

[Samets]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

I agree with others here about sniping, which has has been around from the beginning. I manually snipe unless there's something ending when I know I won't be able to bid; if it's something I want real bad and don't want to forget to bid; or, if multiple items are ending at the same time--then I use a free service (this is rare).

I probably shouldn't say this, but I often actually invite shilling in a way. Many times my placeholder bid is set at about 50% of what I actually would be willing to pay. I want there to be early interest on the off chance a seller is thinking of pulling the card for non-bidding and/or selling off-line at a "panic" price--obviously this would not apply to knowledgeable sellers. Anyway, I am hoping others bid up to my "max" and I don't care if it's shilled to get there--philosophically I wish the card would have been started at a higher price or a reserve set but I understand some sellers for whatever reason don't/won't do that. This let's seller know he won't get absolutely fleeced if it sells. When I get an outbid notice by email I then look to see if I think the interest is legitimate or I suspect shilling. Also, if that outbid notice comes real early after my bid, it signals in some sense that this card may draw real interest for the duration of the auction. In short, it's kind of a litmus test that makes me look at the auction more closely and consider whether this is something I really want and how hard I may have to fight for it with a late snipe. Obviously far from fool proof but makes things a little more interesting, for me anyway. Plus, it helps prevent me from kicking myself when I occasionally forget to bid in ebay auctions that ultimately sell for a small fraction of what I would have paid (it happens)--this way I could get a great deal or at least know I pushed someone else to pay closer to market value.

I'm doing pretty much the same things! If a seller lists a jersey knowing what it is or unknowing what it is at a low price, I will throw in a decent bid to see what the interest level is and to show the seller that he shouldn't sell outside of eBay. This sadly works only fraction of the time. I see too many things that don't get the bids the seller wants and he/she freak out and sell it outside of eBay. I bet they will make more if they let the auction take its course (most of the time)... There are a few guys out there that collect exactly what I do and I can't think of a time where I got a "steal" The only steals I've gotten is from a seller that lists a BIN that is below fair market and I will jump on that.

As a seller, I've been contacted with offers and even a guy with the math of how it makes more sense to skip eBay FVF/PayPal systems...

I'm shocked with as greedy as eBay is that they haven't implemented a 15 minute rule with their auctions. I love it with NFL Auctions. I get an e-mail and I have 15 minutes to decide if I want to go higher. In this case everyone wins. eBay gets the maximum dollar value to get their fees. The seller gets the item sold for the maximum price at that time. The buyer knows that he paid a fair market price.

[cfhofer]

I agree Samets.

I don't see why eBay doesn't offer a "10 minute rule" option to sellers for an additional fee. Maybe it is much more complicated (from the backend/software) than we think??

[travrosty]

in reality, there is no such thing as sniping, you bid as much as you are willing to pay, whether it is right away at the beginning of the auction , or 2 seconds left, and others do too. so the high price takes it, no matter when it was entered as a bid.

[kmac32]

I routinely snipe as it prevents me from getting shilled. Generally works and if it doesn't work, the person that outsnipes me pays a higher price. The key is not to set your bid any higher than what you are actually willing to pay for an item.

Recently was after a common for my W572 set. Bid on a card that was worth around $70. I really wanted the card but could not be by a computer so bid $125.00 as my highest bid. Somebody sniped the card but he paid dearly for it at $127.50. Now if could have been lurking in the shadows, I could have bid with 3 seconds left and probably would have got the card at a semi reasonable price.

The point is that sniping has it's place and the element of suprise can get you an item at a lower price and if you do not win, it will cost your competition $$$.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by kmac32

I routinely snipe as it prevents me from getting shilled. Generally works and if it doesn't work, the person that outsnipes me pays a higher price. The key is not to set your bid any higher than what you are actually willing to pay for an item.

Recently was after a common for my W572 set. Bid on a card that was worth around $70. I really wanted the card but could not be by a computer so bid $125.00 as my highest bid. Somebody sniped the card but he paid dearly for it at $127.50. Now if could have been lurking in the shadows, I could have bid with 3 seconds left and probably would have got the card at a semi reasonable price.

The point is that sniping has it's place and the element of suprise can get you an item at a lower price and if you do not win, it will cost your competition $$$.

I don't know about you but I get about as much joy as winning an item for a price that was in market price range but the low range as I do getting 'outbid' and that bid puts the sale above the high end of the market range..

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by cfhofer

Great comments/points! EBay provided (IMHO) the single biggest jolt to the sports memorabilia hobby in the last 30 years. While it may have accelerated the downfall of brick & mortar sport shops and local card shows, it had enough global accessibility to generate a true “market value” for our collectibles – while completely eliminating the middle man in the process.

Does snipe bidding establish a true "market value"? It is a flurry of independent single offers within the last 10 seconds of an auction. While it is almost foolish for a bidder to NOT snipe bid (as pointed out above), the seller is forced to play a game of “Russian roulette”. Now some sports collectibles (vintage cards instantly come to mind) generate enough bids that a seller typically makes out ok. But for vintage sports memorabilia it is a total crapshoot on eBay.

Is it a coincidence the high quality vintage sports memorabilia has dried up on eBay over the last few years? Sure an occasional antique dealer puts up a cool piece, but those are few and far between. It seems that more and more high quality pieces are making their way to a plethora of sports auction sites instead – which has reestablished the middle man that eBay helped eliminate. Has the hobby now come full circle?

Great discussion this morning!!

I agree that high-quality vintage sports memorabilia on eBay has indeed dried up. No doubt about it... But I believe sniping has little (if anything) to do with it.

I believe the two biggest reasons are as follows...

1. eBay has reached A LOT of incremental people over the past decade. And with regard to the rare/high quality pieces, collectors tend to stash these items away and keep them in their collections. Therefore, there is just less of the good stuff out there and less available for sale than before.

2. Ebay's fees and other recent policies have all tended to assist the Buyer (rather than the seller). They've contunually jacked up their fees, made PayPal an expensive requirement, and have made the feedback system a joke (in which only Sellers can be rated). In disputes, they almost always side with the Buyer over the Seller.

For those reasons, I never sell on eBay anymore. It has zero to do with sniping... I can simply get a better deal with the Auction Houses. Most Catalog Auctions can offer me a lower commission, and equal/better representation. IMO, the only advantage eBay still has is the speed of payment.

[Scott Garner]

I tend to agree with many of perezfan Mark's points, however I have found eBay is an excellent place to sell vintage baseball tickets and certain other memorabilia.

I've noted that large catalogue AH's are a crap shoot when it comes to selling vintage baseball tickets. Many times tickets do not realize anywhere near the prices that you can frequently get on eBay. I suspect that this is because of the fact that this is where many of the ticket collectors lurk, FWIW...

[cfhofer]

That is an excellent point perezfan. Snipe bidding is probably just another example of eBay's persistent pandering to the buyer.

[Teamgluck]

I got snipped today on a Brooklyn Dodger pennant I really wanted but am ok with it due to a fear of shill bids.

I do wish ebay put on a minute extended bid policy which would reduce sniping/ give me a chance to bid again

[sporteq]

Should bidders be warned after a series of bids on a item? Say they bid 10 times on a item.. Should ebay system warn them about their bidding activity, then allow them maybe 2 more bids? I can't see why someone needs to bid more than 5 times on a item. Just brainstorming

[perezfan]

Well... Some may be "fishing" for a reserve amount.

Others may be trying to beat an earlier placed ceiling bid.

Others may not have the patience or discipline to bid late.

And perhaps the remainder are simply unaware of the various sniping services.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Teamgluck

I got snipped today on a Brooklyn Dodger pennant I really wanted but am ok with it due to a fear of shill bids.

I do wish ebay put on a minute extended bid policy which would reduce sniping/ give me a chance to bid again

eBay tried the extended bid policy several years ago and if failed miserably for good reason.

[vintagesportscollector]

Fair question Travis - but you make it sound so easy...”figure out the highest amount you are willing to pay and no more..”. David addressed it well in post #48. I thought $111.11 was my highest and would easily win the item. Given the opportunity to bid another $1, I did. Since we were tied I knew the next increment would/could win it. I only bid the next minimum increment. Would I have gone to $120?...NO. I had the opportunity to get the item for another small increment and I decided to do it. Most people would…even you I bet.

Think of every item you have lost on ebay that you really wanted….now, think of this…after each time you lost someone tells you you can win it if you pay another $1. Would you say no?? Bullshit – of course you wouldn’t. You would throw in another $1 much of the time, going over “the highest amount you are willing to pay and no more..”. If you say you wouldn’t then I think you are lieing to yourself.

It’s all emotions, the thrill of the chase, yada yada yada…it happens to ALL of us.

[yankeeno7]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I agree that high-quality vintage sports memorabilia on eBay has indeed dried up. No doubt about it... But I believe sniping has little (if anything) to do with it.

I believe the two biggest reasons are as follows...

1. eBay has reached A LOT of incremental people over the past decade. And with regard to the rare/high quality pieces, collectors tend to stash these items away and keep them in their collections. Therefore, there is just less of the good stuff out there and less available for sale than before.

2. Ebay's fees and other recent policies have all tended to assist the Buyer (rather than the seller). They've contunually jacked up their fees, made PayPal an expensive requirement, and have made the feedback system a joke (in which only Sellers can be rated). In disputes, they almost always side with the Buyer over the Seller.

For those reasons, I never sell on eBay anymore. It has zero to do with sniping... I can simply get a better deal with the Auction Houses. Most Catalog Auctions can offer me a lower commission, and equal/better representation. IMO, the only advantage eBay still has is the speed of payment.

This. +1

[drcy]

Sniping is why sellers began ending auctions early to accept offers. Whether or not one thinks it's ethical, if a $500 item is stuck at a 99 cent bid on day five, many sellers will start entertaining reasonable offers. This is particularly true when they were previously burned by auctions where snipe bid never materialized in the last two seconds and the items sold for cheap.

I put up a somewhat valuable item item for 99 cents on eBay with $5 shipping. It sold for $15. The shipping was $17.50. I wasn't about to end the auction once there was a bid and the winner had bought valuable items from me before so I'm not complaining and I'm happy for his business, but this is why I rarely do auctions on eBay and have no intention to in the near future. It's all BINs for me with no apologies.

Do I think sniping in part messed up eBay auctions and contributed to the scarcity of auctions and the abundance of BINs? Yes, I do. I believe it very firmly. Do I think sniping was a reasonable reaction to shill bidding and eBay protecting shill bidders? Yes. Something can be messed by multiple forces. Though I do know if sellers thought they'd get fair prices via eBay auctions there would be more auctions and fewer BINs. Most sellers would be much prefer to have their items sold at fair prices in a week, rather than sit around as BINs.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by perezfan

I agree that high-quality vintage sports memorabilia on eBay has indeed dried up. No doubt about it... But I believe sniping has little (if anything) to do with it.

I believe the two biggest reasons are as follows...

1. eBay has reached A LOT of incremental people over the past decade. And with regard to the rare/high quality pieces, collectors tend to stash these items away and keep them in their collections. Therefore, there is just less of the good stuff out there and less available for sale than before.

2. Ebay's fees and other recent policies have all tended to assist the Buyer (rather than the seller). They've contunually jacked up their fees, made PayPal an expensive requirement, and have made the feedback system a joke (in which only Sellers can be rated). In disputes, they almost always side with the Buyer over the Seller.

For those reasons, I never sell on eBay anymore. It has zero to do with sniping... I can simply get a better deal with the Auction Houses. Most Catalog Auctions can offer me a lower commission, and equal/better representation. IMO, the only advantage eBay still has is the speed of payment.

Ebay + Paypal is 11%. What auction house charges less than that? The ones I've seen are charging 18-20%. The only advantage that I see with them is that your item sells for more. No sniping plus bidders that don't use ebay.

[drcy]

"The only advantage that I see with them is that your item sells for more."

That's known a big advantage.

One problem with the scarcity of auctions on eBay, and the scarcity of quality items auction on eBay, is fewer collectors look for eBay auctions. A seller may not put up a nice item sd auction on eBay out of fear collectors won't look for or see it amongst the sea of BINs. In the old days when BINs were few to none, eBay was the place for auctions and people came to bid.

[David Atkatz]

I snipe for one reason only: To prevent other bidders from deciding, after seeing my bid, to bid again. By sniping I can't beat anyone who has already decided to bid more than I did, but I can prevent someone from deciding then to pay more than he thought he would.
As far as I'm concerned, it makes no sense whatever not to snipe.

[travrosty]

others snipe knowing they cant enter another bid, like you, so they are like you and entering their max snipe. if you enter the max bid right at the end or the beginning , you will win it or not depending on whether someone wanted it more than you or not.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

I snipe for one reason only: To prevent other bidders from deciding, after seeing my bid, to bid again. By sniping I can't beat anyone who has already decided to bid more than I did, but I can prevent someone from deciding then to pay more than he thought he would.
As far as I'm concerned, it makes no sense whatever not to snipe.

+1

[cfhofer]

You are spot on Drcy!

Let's be honest...we don't snipe bid to just avoid "shill" bids. We snipe bid to avoid "ANY" competing bid, even legitimate ones. It is exploitation of a flaw in eBay's auction system. Correct me if I'm wrong but it is the only auction house in history to function this way.

The purpose of an auction is to sell an item at fair market value. How does a flurry of snipe bids in the final 10 seconds determine fair market value? Now there are some items, say a 1968 Topps Nolan Ryan PSA 7, that the market value is pretty well established. But how much should someone pay for an 1894 Varsity Yale Football Pach Bros photo? Our hobby needs the back-and-forth of bids to determine that. That is healthy for our hobby.

[doug.goodman]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

I snipe for one reason only: To prevent other bidders from deciding, after seeing my bid, to bid again. By sniping I can't beat anyone who has already decided to bid more than I did, but I can prevent someone from deciding then to pay more than he thought he would.
As far as I'm concerned, it makes no sense whatever not to snipe.

There it is, in a nutshell.

If you don't want to be "sniped" then bid a higher amount. Easy.

[drcy]

As noted, many bidders who lose an auction by a last second bid would have placed a higher bid if given a second chance. If bids were placed earlier, they would have had the second chance, but with snipe bids they have no second chance. This explains why snipe bids can and do lower prices.

If someone places a snipe bid of $200 and it's won by someone else at $205, he may say "Aw shoot, I wanted that. I would have paid $210 for that. I may have even paid $220. I wish I could go back and raise my max bid." If there were no snipe bids, but the $205 (or higher) bid by his opponent placed a day before the auction's or even 10 minutes before the end, he has the chance to say "Aw shoot, I want this so I'm going to raise my bid to $220." That's exactly how snipe bids can and do result in lower prices. And that's exactly why auction houses have 10 or fifteen minute rules. No major auction house has a fixed ending time with snipe bidding-- because they know many bidders will raise their previous max bids if given 10 or fifteen minutes to reconsider, and they know their 10 or 15 minute chance to reconsider system results in higher final prices.

In a 7 day auction, a bidder may have a set-in-stone, unwavering mind, "that's what's in my budget" $1,000 max bid for 6 days 23 hours and 55 minutes, but when he sees the bid go to $1,010 with five minutes left he may say "Aw what the hell, I'll go to $1,100." If the $1,100 bid isn't high enough and there's two minutes left he may say "Okay, I'll bid $1,250, but no higher." If the two bidders had place snipe bids, the auction would have ended at $1,010.