O/T Scherzer - Almost a Vandermeer

[nolemmings]

Well, the rule is there that would have disallowed that HBP. As most here know, it saved Drysdale's shutout streak when the ump ruled Dick Dietz could not take first after failing to make an effort to get out of the way of an inside pitch that hit him on the elbow with the bases loaded. Here, Tabata not only only failed to make an effort to avoid contact, he actually moved to get hit. So it quite easily could have been ruled that he had to stay in the box--that would have been not only in the spirit, but also the written rules of the game.

And no, Scherzer did not miss the zone by a foot. The chalk for the batter's box is only six inches off the plate and that's about where the pitch was thrown--the catcher did not even have to leave his squat to catch it. It was an 86 mph slider that did not slide, but was not sailing into him--what little bend it had would have taken it toward the plate. No way he tries that with a 97 mph fastball. Speaking of which, hats off to Scherzer for the way he handled it, but I wouldn't mind or be surprised if he drilled Tabata in the ribs next time he faces him, if not multiple times. And it won't be a slider.

[Beatles Guy]

Take off the elbow armor and then lean in to get hit. I'd give him that HBP.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Well, the rule is there that would have disallowed that HBP. As most here know, it saved Drysdale's shutout streak when the ump ruled Dick Dietz could not take first after failing to make an effort to get out of the way of an inside pitch that hit him on the elbow with the bases loaded. Here, Tabata not only only failed to make an effort to avoid contact, he actually moved to get hit. So it quite easily could have been ruled that he had to stay in the box--that would have been not only in the spirit, but also the written rules of the game.

And no, Scherzer did not miss the zone by a foot. The chalk for the batter's box is only six inches off the plate and that's about where the pitch was thrown--the catcher did not even have to leave his squat to catch it. It was an 86 mph slider that did not slide, but was not sailing into him--what little bend it had would have taken it toward the plate. No way he tries that with a 97 mph fastball. Speaking of which, hats off to Scherzer for the way he handled it, but I wouldn't mind or be surprised if he drilled Tabata in the ribs next time he faces him, if not multiple times. And it won't be a slider.

Sorry Todd. The catcher was setting up on the outside part of the plate as Scherzer was delivering the ball. He missed his spot by the entire plate and at least six inches inside if not more. It was a terrible pitch. Scherzer was understandably amped up. The pitch was too far inside and never broke. Tabata should never have been in that position. Scherzer understands that.

If he drills Tabata, I would like to see two things happen.

1. It sends Tabata to the DL then back to the minors where he belongs.
2. Gerritt Cole fires one at 100 MPH at ass of the National of his choosing.

Tom C

[nolemmings]

Sorry Todd. The catcher was setting up on the outside part of the plate as Scherzer was delivering the ball. He missed his spot by the entire plate and at least six inches inside if not more. It was a terrible pitch. Scherzer was understandably amped up. The pitch was too far inside and never broke. Tabata should never have been in that position. Scherzer understands that.

If he drills Tabata, I would like to see two things happen.

1. It sends Tabata to the DL then back to the minors where he belongs.
2. Gerritt Cole fires one at 100 MPH at ass of the National of his choosing.

Wherever his target was, that pitch was only 6 or so inches off the plate, not a foot as someone said. Watch the replay. Again, it was a breaking pitch that had little or no break, but the point is barely relevant. The rule is what it is. He could and I believe should have had it enforced.

And if Pittsburgh wants to get in a beanball war then I hope they go for it. Dbacks fans lost Goldschmidt for a 1/3 of last year as a result of Pirates pitching--pitching that led the league in batters hit by a wide margin. Then we had to listen to whining about retaliation for hitting McCutcheon, who later was determined to have been hurt on a fielding play and not the HBP. What little national attention and goodwill that Pirate team is drawing will go out the window if they want to make much of a deal out of this or anything else. So yes, get Cole all warmed up--I'm sure you'll get Matt Williams' attention--and see how that ends for the Bucs.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Wherever his target was, that pitch was only 6 or so inches off the plate, not a foot as someone said. Watch the replay. Again, it was a breaking pitch that had little or no break, but the point is barely relevant. The rule is what it is. He could and I believe should have had it enforced.

And if Pittsburgh wants to get in a beanball war then I hope they go for it. Dbacks fans lost Goldschmidt for a 1/3 of last year as a result of Pirates pitching--pitching that led the league in batters hit by a wide margin. Then we had to listen to whining about retaliation for hitting McCutcheon, who later was determined to have been hurt on a fielding play and not the HBP. What little national attention and goodwill that Pirate team is drawing will go out the window if they want to make much of a deal out of this or anything else. So yes, get Cole all warmed up--I'm sure you'll get Matt Williams' attention--and see how that ends for the Bucs.

A pitcher doesn't throw the ball "over the plate". He hits spots.

I am the one who said a foot. Actually I said 18 inches. I said that he missed his spot by 18 inches. May have actually been more. It was an awful pitch and he cannot blame anyone but himself. He has said pretty much exactly this since then.

On a night of amazing pitches, this one was terrible.

Tom C

[nolemmings]

First of all, it was Orioles1954 who said "Scherzer threw the ball inside and missed the zone by about a foot.", so I was not responding to you.
Second, it doesn't matter where he was trying to throw it, and of course I recognize it was a bad pitch as did everyone else. That is irrelevant to whether the rule applies and whether Tabata deliberately tried to get hit. Are you suggesting that the rule should apply if Scherzer tried to throw a brushback pitch intentionally and just missed "his spot" by an inch or two, but since he threw a slower breaking pitch that didn't break and missed his target by a lot the rule somehow does not apply? That makes little sense.

Again, hats off to Scherzer all around. He probably does not have a right to rely on that rule being enforced, especially as it is a judgment call, but it would have been nice to see it and would not have cheapened anything had it been enforced, IMO. Personally, I think it was bush league of Tabata. I'm confident if that would have been Drysdale or Gibson out there in the 60's, Tabata could count on getting plunked a time or four thereafter. Hell Pedro and Randy Johnson likely would do the same. Time will tell.

[nolemmings]

I guess I need to read up on this stuff.

Yeah, you might want to.

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

First of all, it was Orioles1954 who said "Scherzer threw the ball inside and missed the zone by about a foot.", so I was not responding to you.
Second, it doesn't matter where he was trying to throw it, and of course I recognize it was a bad pitch as did everyone else. That is irrelevant to whether the rule applies and whether Tabata deliberately tried to get hit. Are you suggesting that the rule should apply if Scherzer tried to throw a brushback pitch intentionally and just missed "his spot" by an inch or two, but since he threw a slower breaking pitch that didn't break and missed his target by a lot the rule somehow does not apply? That makes little sense.

Again, hats off to Scherzer all around. He probably does not have a right to rely on that rule being enforced, especially as it is a judgment call, but it would have been nice to see it and would not have cheapened anything had it been enforced, IMO. Personally, I think it was bush league of Tabata. I'm confident if that would have been Drysdale or Gibson out there in the 60's, Tabata could count on getting plunked a time or four thereafter. Hell Pedro and Randy Johnson likely would do the same. Time will tell.

I agree with you regarding the rule. Tabata did not try to get out of the way of the pitch. My beef is you advocating that Scherzer plunk the guy for doing it. That and using the Goldschmidt fiasco to help with your reasoning of how it would go for the Pirates.

For one thing, Goldschmidt was hit by a curve ball by a terrible pitcher by accident. A pitch that he seemed to move the wrong way on and actually moved his hands into the path of the ball. A curve ball. Not intentional. Hitting McCutchen on the back with a fastball....not the same thing. I understand why it happened, but to somehow equate that the Pirates had it coming because a curve ball from a terrible pitcher got away from him and Goldschmidt made the unlucky split second decision to move his hands INTO the path of the ball? Again, my bad.

For another thing, how in heck does breaking up a perfect game on a pitch that the pitcher himself took responsibility for even remotely call for your endorsement for him to get hit? As much as I can't stand Jose Tabata, he does not deserve to get hit for that. For being bad at Baseball, sure. But not for that.

And my general angst at the topic is not geared towards you. It is more for the media talking head types with a general case of panty-bunchitis over the issue.

Tom C

[nolemmings]

You're all over the place. Not once did you say the rule might, could or should apply--you basically held fast to your notion that since it was a bad pitch nothing else matters. Glad to see that you're back on point.

Next,I am not advocating that Scherzer do anything. I'm stating now that I thought it was a bush league play, and I expressing my opinion that I have no problem with Tabata getting plunked for it--pointing to examples of pitchers who no doubt did or likely would have done the same.

Finally, Goldschmidt was hit by a 93 MPH fastball moving up and in. He was hit in the 9th inning of a 9-4 game with nobody on base. The video is still available. BTW, so is a video of Morneau getting plunked the pitch after McCutcheon stood and admired his 100th career HR. Pirates seem to have difficulty understanding that others may take a different view of their conduct than what they see. Some get tired of hearing they pitch inside to keep the hitters honest and all that. Fine, do it, but if you keep hitting the other teams' players than prepare for the fallout. One is just as old school as the other.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

First of all, it was Orioles1954 who said "Scherzer threw the ball inside and missed the zone by about a foot.", so I was not responding to you.
Second, it doesn't matter where he was trying to throw it, and of course I recognize it was a bad pitch as did everyone else. That is irrelevant to whether the rule applies and whether Tabata deliberately tried to get hit. Are you suggesting that the rule should apply if Scherzer tried to throw a brushback pitch intentionally and just missed "his spot" by an inch or two, but since he threw a slower breaking pitch that didn't break and missed his target by a lot the rule somehow does not apply? That makes little sense.

Again, hats off to Scherzer all around. He probably does not have a right to rely on that rule being enforced, especially as it is a judgment call, but it would have been nice to see it and would not have cheapened anything had it been enforced, IMO. Personally, I think it was bush league of Tabata. I'm confident if that would have been Drysdale or Gibson out there in the 60's, Tabata could count on getting plunked a time or four thereafter. Hell Pedro and Randy Johnson likely would do the same. Time will tell.

Not that I advocate drilling people, but one of the great moments I have seen came during yet another bad blood game between the Red Sox and Indians in the late 90s or early 2000s. In the home half of the eighth inning, after stuff had been accelerating the whole game including a mound charge or two, Nagy drilled one of the Sox batters. Pedro who probably would normally have come out of the game insisted he return to the mound for the ninth. The umpire went out to warn him, but everyone in the ballpark knew he was going to drill the first batter which he proceeded to do with the first pitch. And not with a fluff pitch either, with a hard fastball to the backside. He was completely unapologetic afterwards.

[Fred]

Max could still pull of the Vandy feat if he thows a no-no in his next start...

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

And if Pittsburgh wants to get in a beanball war then I hope they go for it. Dbacks fans lost Goldschmidt for a 1/3 of last year as a result of Pirates pitching--pitching that led the league in batters hit by a wide margin. Then we had to listen to whining about retaliation for hitting McCutcheon, who later was determined to have been hurt on a fielding play and not the HBP. What little national attention and goodwill that Pirate team is drawing will go out the window if they want to make much of a deal out of this or anything else. So yes, get Cole all warmed up--I'm sure you'll get Matt Williams' attention--and see how that ends for the Bucs.

They do like to pitch inside. Here I thought that was "playing the game the right way". My bad. I forgot millionaires can't have the ball come close to them.

And of course, getting revenge for losing your star is the exact same thing as getting revenge for losing a perfect game. Especially when the pitcher himself has already taken full responsibility for how terrible the pitch was. Again. My mistake. I guess I need to read up on this stuff.

Tom C