T206 Detective Work

[atx840]

Boston, only known example and its a pretty low quality scan. I do not have a scan of the Chase dark cap.

Here is a higher quality version of the below layout.

[mrvster]

the sweet cap 460 yellow browns are exactly the same # and same subjects as broadleaf 460

OH BOY!

ames swaped for Dougherty.........they must have been printed concurrently......

DUDE!

this is huge! they are almost the same total population known/ same subjects...

TWINS TO BROADLEAF 460

[sreader3]

Chris -- Your theory that Dougherty (Arm in Air) was swapped out for Ames (Hands Above) is interesting. That could explain why it took so long to confirm Ames with SC 460/42 No Overstrike and why he has not been confirmed with Red Hindu when there is otherwise perfect (as far as we know) correspondence between SC 460/42 No Overstrike and Red Hindu. I suppose the theory would be that the swap occurred after Red Hindu production ended but while SC 460/42 No Overstrike production was still ongoing. Hence no Ames Red Hindu and a shortprinted Ames SC 460/42 No Overstrike. You seem to be way ahead of me on this so perhaps I am just telling you what you already know.

Johnny -- Your BL460 comments are also very interesting. Will have to absorb them.

Scot

[t206hound]

I'm pretty sure that Chris has done this analysis, but I took a stab at it as well. Note that several cards in the 460 series that are expected, but not confirmed. There could be some that are not expected, that do exist (the Ames SC460-42 is one that appeared recently).

When looking at the 460 Series of 109 subjects (American Beauty, Broad Leaf, Cycle, Piedmont 25/42, Sovereign, Sweet Cap 25/30/42/42OP, Yellow Brown) you can break them down into smaller groups:

Superprints (6), which appear in all the 460 series (including YB) except AB460:

• Chance, Frank (Portrait - Yellow)
• Chase, Hal (Portrait - Blue)
• Chase, Hal (Black Cap)
• Cobb, Ty (Portrait - Red)
• Evers, Johnny (Chicago On Shirt-Yellow Sky)
• Mathewson, Christy (Dark Cap)

Remaining non-AB460 (27), don't appear in AB460, S460 or SC460-30. I'm not grouping in Dougherty (no Yellow Brown):

• Baker, Frank
• Bender, Chief (No Trees)
• Brown, Mordecai (Chicago On Shirt)
• Davis, Harry (Davis On Front)
• Donlin, Mike (With Bat)
• Doolan, Mickey (Batting)
• Downey, Tom (Batting)
• Doyle, Larry (With Bat)
• Elberfeld, Kid (Fielding)
• Griffith, Clark (Batting)
• Johnson, Walter (Glove At Chest)
• Joss, Addie (Hands At Chest)
• Kleinow, Red (Boston - Catching)
• Konetchy, Ed (Glove Near Ground)
• Magee, Sherry (With Bat)
• McIntyre, Harry (Brooklyn & Chicago)
• Murphy, Danny (Batting)
• O'Leary, Charley (Hands On Knees)
• Reulbach, Ed (No Glove Showing)
• Rucker, Nap (Throwing)
• Seymour, Cy (Throwing)
• Snodgrass, Fred (Catching)
• Stahl, Jake (Glove Shows)
• Street, Gabby (Catching)
• Sweeney, Jeff
• Willis, Vic (Throwing)
• Young, Cy (With Glove)

Then we get to the groups that are in AB460...

Exclusive Twelve (12), which do appear in AB460, but not in BL460, P460-25, SC460-25 or YB:

• Crandall, Doc (Portrait With Cap)
• DeVore, Josh
• Duffy, Hugh
• Ford, Russ
• Gandil, Chick
• Geyer, Rube
• Hummel, John
• McGraw, John (Glove At Hip)
• Pfeffer, Francis
• Sheckard, Jimmy (Glove Showing)
• Tannehill, Lee (Tannehill On Front)
• Wheat, Zack

Then we have the Sovereign group (34):
Group A (21) - not in P42

• Abbaticchio, Ed (Blue Sleeves)
• Ball, Neal (Cleveland)
• Bell, George (Follow Thru)
• Bescher, Bob (Hands In Air)
• Bridwell, Al (Portrait - With Cap)
• Camnitz, Howie (Arm At Side)
• Camnitz, Howie (Hands Above Head)
• Doyle, Larry (Portrait)
• Frill, John
• Herzog, Buck (Boston)
• Howell, Harry (Hand At Waist)
• Lake, Joe (St. Louis - Ball In Hand)
• McGraw, John (Portrait - With Cap)
• Meyers, Chief
• Needham, Tom
• Oldring, Rube (Batting)
• Payne, Fred
• Schulte, Wildfire (Back View)
• Smith, Happy
• Stovall, George (Batting)
• Tinker, Joe (Bat On Shoulder)

Group B (13) - In P42

• Bergen, Bill (Catching)
• Chance, Frank (Batting)
• Chase, Hal (Holding Trophy)
• Latham, Arlie
• Marquard, Rube (Pitching)
• Merkle, Fred (Throwing)
• Murray, Red (Portrait)
• Overall, Orval (Hands Waist Level)
• Schaefer, Germany (Washington)
• Schlei, Admiral (Batting)
• Schlei, Admiral (Portrait)
• Seymour, Cy (Portrait)
• Wiltse, Hooks (Portrait - With Cap)

Then the Piedmont 42, non-Sovereign group (28):

• Berger, Heinie
• Bradley, Bill (With Bat)
• Burch, Al (Fielding)
• Cobb, Ty (Bat Off Shoulder)
• Conroy, Wid (With Bat)
• Crawford, Sam (With Bat)
• Jennings, Hughie (One Hand Showing)
• Jennings, Hughie (Two Hands Showing)
• Jordan, Tim (Batting)
• Lajoie, Nap (With Bat)
• Lake, Joe (St. Louis - No Ball)
• Leach, Tommy (Bending Over)
• Leifield, Lefty (Batting)
• Manning, Rube (Pitching)
• McQuillan, George (With Bat)
• Mullin, George (With Bat)
• Overall, Orval (Hand At Face Level)
• Pelty, Barney (Vertical)*
• Pfeister, Jake (Throwing)
• Smith, Frank (Chicago & Boston)
• Steinfeldt, Harry (With Bat)
• Tinker, Joe (Bat Off Shoulder)
• Wagner, Heinie (Bat On Right Shoulder)
• White, Doc (Pitching)
• Wilhelm, Kaiser (With Bat)
• Willetts, Ed
• Willis, Vic (Batting)
• Wiltse, Hooks (Pitching)

And then there is Ames and Dougherty. They both appear in: Cycle 460, EPDG, Lennox Black, Old Mill, P350, P460-25, P460-42, PB, S350AG, SC350-25, SC350-30, SC460-25, SC460-42, and SC460-42OP

Ames also has: AB460, Uzit, Yellow Brown
Dougherty also has: BL460, Red Hindu

The original thought I had as I have been putting together the SC460-42 subset was that Ames and Dougherty were short printed, but within the same press runs (and sheets) and perhaps there are some undiscovered cards. But I would guess that Chris' notion that they were swapped out for each other at some point during press runs is a more probable explanation.

[sreader3]

Originally Posted by t206hound

Ames also has: AB460, Uzit, Yellow Brown
Dougherty also has: BL460, Red Hindu

The original thought I had as I have been putting together the SC460-42 subset was that Ames and Dougherty were short printed, but within the same press runs (and sheets) and perhaps there are some undiscovered cards. But I would guess that Chris' notion that they were swapped out for each other at some point during press runs is a more probable explanation.

Erick, Thanks for this information. I agree with you that the swap theory seems more consistent with the apparent mutual exclusivity (as opposed to just higher/lower percentages) of Ames and Dougherty with those five backs. I guess time will tell whether mutual exclusivity holds up. Scot

[mrvster]

this is amazing!! we are re verse engineering the sheets!

looks like the sweet cap 350-460 no overstrike yellow/brown printer's scrap are the sister cards to broadleaf 460! exact subject matter/except for the dougherty / ames swap.....

Scot....please help confirm

this is amazing!

[sreader3]

Originally Posted by mrvster

this is amazing!! we are re verse engineering the sheets!

looks like the sweet cap 350-460 no overstrike yellow/brown printer's scrap are the sister cards to broadleaf 460! exact subject matter/except for the dougherty / ames swap.....

Scot....please help confirm

this is amazing!

Johnny,

I think that's where we are headed, although a few of the BL460s are not yet confirmed. I want to emphasize that Chris' posts on this thread are the first I have heard about it. It is the fruit of his research--not mine.

Scot

[sreader3]

Originally Posted by t206hound

Ames also has: AB460, Uzit, Yellow Brown
Dougherty also has: BL460, Red Hindu

The original thought I had as I have been putting together the SC460-42 subset was that Ames and Dougherty were short printed, but within the same press runs (and sheets) and perhaps there are some undiscovered cards. But I would guess that Chris' notion that they were swapped out for each other at some point during press runs is a more probable explanation.

Another point in favor of the Ames for Dougherty swap theory is the ledger page indicating that packing of T206 cards with the Uzit brand began on March 18, 1911--very late in the process. In view of that timeline, it makes sense that Dougherty would not have been printed with that back.

[tedzan]

Hey guys, this switching of Ames and Dougherty is an interesting theory; but, I think it needs more research.

I'd like to question certain comments that have been made here regarding the 350/460 series Ames card with AB 460 & UZIT backs. I posted this thread
a month ago regarding this Ames card presenting arguments why this Ames card was not printed with AB 460, nor UZIT backs
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=203849

Neither of these backs have been confirmed with this Ames card. AB 460's are very tough, but not that impossible that we would not have seen the Ames
card by now with an AB 460 back. Yet......

(1) I have not seen this Ames in the 8 years that I have been chasing my AB 460 sub-set.

(2) David Hall, in his quest for a Master set of T206's, has not seen an Ames/AB 460.

(3) And Scot (correct me if I am wrong here) has not seen an Ames/AB 460 card in his 100K+ T206 survey.

The recent discovery of this AMES with a SWEET CAPORAL 460/42 back suggests that this Ames was also printed with a red HINDU back. Therefore, due
to the mutually exclusive law regarding 350/460 series subjects, this Ames card will never be found with an AB 460 back......nor a UZIT.

I predict that eventually this Ames card will be discovered with a red HINDU back. Furthermore, I also think it may also be found with a BL 460 back.


TED Z
.

[atx840]

I do not think they were mutually exclusive, just that at some point during the print run the cards were swapped. It could have been half way through several brands being printed.

I also am not sure the confirmed listing on T206resource for Ames AB460 & UZIT are correct, originally I thought its possible Ames was subbed back in for Tinker but with the recent P42 Tinker find this no longer fits. Would really like to see scans of these two cards.

Recently Dougherty was found with RH, which could explain why no Ames has been found.

HA Auction

[mrvster]

an amazing thing to see the yellow/brown scrap collage chris assembled......then just look at the broadleaf 460 list....

it would be great to see a bl 460 collage!!! and put them side to side

hint....hint....hint

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by atx840

Boston, only known example and its a pretty low quality scan. I do not have a scan of the Chase dark cap.

Here is a higher quality version of the below layout.

Pardon me if I have misconstrued something here.

OK, I count 33 images in this scan. And, Chase (dark cap) is missing, which would bring the total to 34 subjects. Therefore Chris, why are you assuming that Dougherty
is not the 35th missing subject ?

You are trying to make the number "34" fit into your theory. However, as I see it there could actually be 35 subjects in this group of scraps (which includes Dougherty).


Furthermore, I assume that all these scraps have SWEET CAP 460/30 backs. Is this a correct observation by me ?

If this is true, then there should be 28 more scraps from the 350/460 series that were printed with the SWEET CAP 460/30 backs. Thoughts as to why these additional
28 have not been found ?


TED Z
.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by atx840

Boston, only known example and its a pretty low quality scan. I do not have a scan of the Chase dark cap.

Here is a higher quality version of the below layout.

This card just arrived, so I thought I'd post it with Chris' grid. Doesn't help us locate that Ames, however. I'll keep looking....

[mrvster]

congrats! great pick up I'm jealous

[Sean]

Originally Posted by mrvster

congrats! great pick up I'm jealous

Thanks, buddy. I hope it wasn't you that I outbid.

[mrvster]

Sean! didn't even see it!


AWESOME y/b

[Sean]

It was in the SGC auction that ended the same day as REA, which is probably why you missed it. They only featured a couple T206.

Getting this one made me feel better about getting shutout in REA.

[atx840]

Hey Ted, here is my breakdown of the entire 460 series.

The first group of 27 + 1 (either Dougherty or Ames) + the 6 superprints would make a sheet of 34.

The group 3 of 28 + 6 (either super prints, or your Exclusive 12) makes 34

The groups 4 & 5 of 21 + 13 makes another sheet of 34 (the one oddball is P42s are missing the 21, which is weird)

There is 34 SC 150 F649s, 34 Hindu SLs, 67+1 (Either Magie or Magee) in P150, SC150F25, SC150F30, SOV150 & Hindu. Its also very frequent in the 350 series but thats still a work in progress.

Why are the P42s missing the group of 21, how do we get a significant more Exclusive 12s in AB460, SOV460s & RH, did a group of 28+Exclusives get mixed in when printing the UZITS. This is what keeps me up at night