Ty Cobb - Not a Cheating Bigot or Dirty Player - new biography

[sago]

http://www.bostonglobe.com/arts/book...wkN/story.html

Sounds like he has been misjudged on several fronts.

[4815162342]

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1431270759.541892.jpg
I guess he was right.

[Hankphenom]

You can read what those who played with and against him had to say about him long after he is gone and they are now old men with nothing to prove or hide in "The Glory of Their Times." Even better is to hear it directly from them on the audio edition. In general, Cobb was not well liked at all by his contemporaries, got into a lot of fights on and off the field, and had some old-fashioned racial ideas--"Still fighting the Civil War" is how Sam Crawford put it. However, to a man they also defend his base-running as hard-nosed and aggressive, not cheating or dirty.

[byrone]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

You can read what those who played with and against him had to say about him long after he is gone and they are now old men with nothing to prove or hide in "The Glory of Their Times." Even better is to hear it directly from them on the audio edition. In general, Cobb was not well liked at all by his contemporaries, got into a lot of fights on and off the field, and had some old-fashioned racial ideas--"Still fighting the Civil War" is how Sam Crawford put it. However, to a man they also defend his base-running as hard-nosed and aggressive, not cheating or dirty.

To be fair, Crawford to me often comes across as the "Cobb"-like personality. In "The Glory of Their Times" Crawford seems anti-social to a degree. Also, it must have been a tough situation for him during his playing days where the young Cobb came to Detroit and received all the headlines. Jealousy may have been an issue for Crawford. Not to mention, did Crawford join in heavily in the poor rookie treatment of Cobb?

Interesting too that accounts exist that Cobb lobbied hard on behalf of Crawford to help get him elected to the HOF

As with most things it seems, with Cobb, it's complicated

But I would caution the use of Crawford as a character witness for/against Cobb at least to some degree

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by sago

http://www.bostonglobe.com/arts/book...wkN/story.html

Sounds like he has been misjudged on several fronts.

My all-time favorite player and to me the greatest hitter and greatest PLAYER of ALL TIME. I don't know how I'd feel about this book being true. I definitely would like to read it.

I highly doubt that he was anything but what he has been portrayed as though.

[Joshwesley]

Cobb was an awesome business man that's for sure.....

He did really well for himself after his playing days.

[Orioles1954]

Cobb was also an extremely intelligent and well-read man. I had the opportunity to review a couple dozen original Cobb full letters to a female fan and he does nothing but write about the weather and the several books he was reading.

[vintagehofrookies]

with Cobb being my favorite HOFer this book is a must buy and should be an interesting read and comparison to Stumps book.

[jlehma13]

For a much different perspective into Cobb, this interview with his grandson is very interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaA5KpAkKzc

[packs]

Ty Cobb was not a racist. He defended the inclusion of African-Americans in baseball and all life on numerous occasions. I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a quote in which he disparages them.

[Enfuego]

Sounds like a good read IMO, might check it out.

[vintagehofrookies]

Originally Posted by jlehma13

For a much different perspective into Cobb, this interview with his grandson is very interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaA5KpAkKzc

thank you for posting, Im listening to it now

[HerbK]

I just finished reading Herschel Cobb's, Heart of a Tiger. A fantastic book which not only highlights the dysfunction of the Cobb family, but also the warmth and generosity of Ty Cobb in his twilight years -- albeit, through the eyes of a young teenager.

While it's hard to say what the man was like during his playing days (depending on who you believe - and for me, Stump isn't one of them), but as a man in his later years, stories of the time spent with his family and him helping out former players who were down on their luck, certainly conflict with how he is perceived by many baseball enthusiasts.

[HerbK]

Another interesting read for Cobb fans.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/histor...back-65618032/

[Hankphenom]

Originally Posted by byrone

To be fair, Crawford to me often comes across as the "Cobb"-like personality. In "The Glory of Their Times" Crawford seems anti-social to a degree. Also, it must have been a tough situation for him during his playing days where the young Cobb came to Detroit and received all the headlines. Jealousy may have been an issue for Crawford. Not to mention, did Crawford join in heavily in the poor rookie treatment of Cobb?

Interesting too that accounts exist that Cobb lobbied hard on behalf of Crawford to help get him elected to the HOF

As with most things it seems, with Cobb, it's complicated

But I would caution the use of Crawford as a character witness for/against Cobb at least to some degree

Don't believe Crawford? Try Davy Jones.

For the record, here's Buck O'Neil's take. If I was able to sit down and have a conversation with any former player or manager, living or deceased, I would probably choose this gentleman.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7zYopq-dFs

[byrone]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

Don't believe Crawford? Try Davy Jones.

Davy Jones offers interesting insights, would like to know more about his take on Cobb

[Tabe]

Tim Hornbaker has written a biography of Cobb that has also just been released. His book, which features extensive footnotes and sourcing, concludes that Cobb was racist. Not so much in the KKK mold but in the "I'm white and you should act with deference to me at all times." mold. I asked Tim about this other new book and he told me he doesn't understand how anyone could draw the "not a racist" conclusion.

Hornbaker's book, btw, is fantastic.

FWIW, he agrees that Cobb was not a dirty player.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by HerbK

Another interesting read for Cobb fans.

http://www.smithsonianmag.com/histor...back-65618032/

Herb K thanks for that !!! I've never read that before. Looking forward to this book.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

Herb K thanks for that !!! I've never read that before. Looking forward to this book.

Interestingly enough this came out last Tuesday.

Cobb War On The Basepaths ...................... two Cobb's in two weeks ???

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/war-...=9781613217658

[Tyler]

Author coming up on Olbermann right now

[Joshchisox08]

Got my copy today 4 chapters deep.

[slidekellyslide]

Ty Cobb was very complex, but he was not the racist that he's been painted to be by the likes of Al Stump. And there is plenty of evidence in Cobb's own words and actions to prove it.

https://nationaltycobbhistorian.wordpress.com/

[Jlighter]

I'm surprised this hasn't been a more popular topic on here, if what Leerhsen writes is true than the popular conception that has been drawn of Cobb will be completely changed.

[Joshwesley]

That link is completely awesome... Thanks for sharing.

Makes a pretty compelling case that Cobb wasn't exactly the monster that history has made him out to be...

Who knows? That just makes his mystique that much more interesting

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Joshwesley

That link is completely awesome... Thanks for sharing.

Makes a pretty compelling case that Cobb wasn't exactly the monster that history has made him out to be...

Who knows? That just makes his mystique that much more interesting

A baseball writer who thinks a player can get an inside-the-park home run on a ball tapped back to the pitcher? Yikes. Doesn't instill me with a ton of confidence in the rest of the book...

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by Hankphenom

You can read what those who played with and against him had to say about him long after he is gone and they are now old men with nothing to prove or hide in "The Glory of Their Times." Even better is to hear it directly from them on the audio edition. In general, Cobb was not well liked at all by his contemporaries, got into a lot of fights on and off the field, and had some old-fashioned racial ideas--"Still fighting the Civil War" is how Sam Crawford put it. However, to a man they also defend his base-running as hard-nosed and aggressive, not cheating or dirty.

+1 as to what is said by his contemporaries in "The Glory of Their Times." The reviewer is also totally off base with regard to his contention that Cobb played in a time when high averages were common. In actual point of fact, Cobb played throughout the heart of the greatest pitchers' era of all time. He is, in fact, just one of 8 players who created more than 200% of the runs an average player would create during the same playing era, a Bill James stat which I consider the best yardstick to compare players across eras, playing their careers under vastly different conditions. Interestingly enough, when you utilize the "neutralization" factor at baseballreference.com, under neutral conditions, to perform up to the equivalent standards of the Georgia Peach, a player would have to hit .400 or better not 3, as Cobb did, but seven times, with an additional 3 seasons of .390 or better!

His legend is growing, and deservedly so.

May your collecting fill you with joy,

Larry

[Butch7999]

We thought Stump's fiction had been largely debunked years ago.
Cobb may have been no angel, but what's to say the ancient old-timers bad-mouthing him were?
We've known bitter, sour old men who've held grudges for fifty years and more (we're some of them).

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Butch7999

We though Stump's fiction had been largely debunked years ago.
Cobb may have been no angel, but what's to say the ancient old-timers bad-mouthing him were?
We've known bitter, sour old men who've held grudges for fifty years and more (we're some of them).

In the case of Tim Hornbaker's book, at least, he used a ton of primary sources from Cobb's time. In particular, he made use of articles from African-American newspapers that have gone largely ignored previously.

The "Cobb was a racist" thing isn't just from Stump (who was a fraud) and it's not just from old guys airing a 50-year old grudge.

[ZenPop]

Originally Posted by Gobucsmagic74

For the record, here's Buck O'Neil's take. If I was able to sit down and have a conversation with any former player or manager, living or deceased, I would probably choose this gentleman.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7zYopq-dFs

Would that every human being be blessed with the humanity and grace of Buck O'Neil.

Cobb was a racist. He was ruthless. He was also a brilliant ballplayer. Those things are not mutually exclusive.

Let me amend this post to say this: I truly, truly hope that what Leerhsen says is correct. I am a massive Giants' fan, but I could never collect Alvin Dark baseball cards after hearing so many stories of his racism. Years later, someone pointed to an obituary in the San Francisco Chronicle about Dark. It contained quotes by Alou and Cepeda about how Dark had asked for forgiveness for his words and behavior in his later days. While not absolving the individual of racist acts, the idea of contrition is a powerful one. I'll try to follow the example of Buck O'Neill in life... and hope that the truth about Cobb wins out. History should never be whitewashed, but it should contain the whole unvarnished record.

[CW]

Originally Posted by Gobucsmagic74

For the record, here's Buck O'Neil's take. If I was able to sit down and have a conversation with any former player or manager, living or deceased, I would probably choose this gentleman.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7zYopq-dFs

Wow, thanks for sharing that link. Some men are smart, but few are wise. Buck O'Neil had wisdom to spare. What a great man, and a great American.

[Jlighter]

Another interview. I'm not seeking these out, the author so happens to be appearing on the programs I frequent.

http://onlyagame.wbur.org/2015/05/16...arles-leerhsen

[jhs5120]

These are the Ty Cobb stories I have heard. Are all of these not true? They are all pretty damaging:

• In spring training of 1907, a black groundskeeper, Bungy Davis, tried to either shake Cobb’s hand or pat him on the shoulder. Cobb was outraged, slapping Davis in the face and chasing him until Davis’s wife attempted to intervene. Cobb choked her until Tigers’ catcher Charlie Schmidt pulled him off her and punched him in the face.
• In 1908 in Detroit, Cobb stepped in freshly poured asphalt and a black workman named Fred Collins made his displeasure known. Cobb punched him the face, knocking him to the ground. A Detroit judge and likely Tigers’ fan found Cobb guilty of battery, but gave him a suspended sentence. Cobb paid Collins $75 to avoid a civil suit.
• In 1909 in Cleveland, Cobb was charged with attempted murder after stabbing a black night watchman named George Stansfield. Stansfield had intervened after Cobb had slapped a black elevator operator. Cobb’s lawyers, one of whom was a former mayor of Cleveland, managed to get the charges reduced to assault and battery. Cobb pled guilty and was fined $100. Stanfield filed a lawsuit, but he and Cobb settled out of court. (In the comments, Fricks insists, without providing any evidence, that Stansfield was white, and that biographer Charles Alexander knew this but decided to lie about it.)
• In 1912 in New York, Cobb attacked a white man for a change, charging into the stands during the sixth inning and administering a savage beating to heckler Claude Lueker. The insult that pushed Cobb over the edge? Lueker called Cobb “a half n**.” (Irrelevant to the question of Cobb’s racism: Lueker didn’t have hands. When the crowd pointed it out, Cobb yelled “I don’t care if he doesn’t have feet.”) Cobb was suspended ten games for the incident. “When I spectator calls me a half n*** I think it’s about time to fight,” Cobb told the Detroit Free Press.
• In 1914 in Detroit, Cobb arrived home with a dinner guest, only to find his wife upset over an argument she had earlier in the day with a local butcher, William Carpenter. Cobb phoned Carpenter, telling him he was coming to see him in the shop, then grabbed his revolver and headed over. When Carpenter saw Cobb enter with a gun, he quickly apologized. Carpenter’s assistant, however, brandished a meat cleaver and advanced on Cobb. Cobb pistol whipped the assistant while Carpenter called the police. Cobb spent the night in jail, and although the assistant decided not to press charges – possible Tigers’ fan alert – Carpenter did. Cobb pled guilty to disturbing the peace and paid a $50 fine. You will never, ever guess Carpenter’s skin color.
• In 1919 in Detroit, Cobb called hotel chambermaid Ada Morris a n******. Morris talked back, and Cobb responded by kicking her in the stomach and knocking her down a flight of stairs. Morris broke a rib and was hospitalized; the hotel manager threw Cobb out. Morris subsequently filed a $10,000 lawsuit against Cobb. Though the matter was covered in the black press, it was kept out of the white papers. Ultimately, Morris was paid an undisclosed sum and dropped the suit.

Edited to add:

Riley Cooper is known as a racist because he said n****** once (or twice?) after a game. Ty Cobb has done that.
Ron Artest is known as a violent animal because he climbed into the stands to beat up a heckler. Ty Cobb has done that.
Ray Rice is known as a woman beater because he punched his girlfriend. Ty Cobb has also done that!

Could you imagine an athlete more racist than Riley Cooper, as violent as Ron Artest and has the same regard for women as Ray Rice? Sounds like a pleasant fellow

[Jlighter]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/31/bo...tml?ref=review

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

Edited to add:

Riley Cooper is known as a racist because he said n****** once (or twice?) after a game. Ty Cobb has done that.
Ron Artest is known as a violent animal because he climbed into the stands to beat up a heckler. Ty Cobb has done that.
Ray Rice is known as a woman beater because he punched his girlfriend. Ty Cobb has also done that!

This obviously will come as a shock to you but are you aware that different standards existed in different eras?

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by calvindog

This obviously will come as a shock to you but are you aware that different standards existed in different eras?

Indeed there were. Not sure why he's being compared to Artest who is just a plain fucking nut job. Or Ray Rice these people have millions of dollars and are doing that crap.

Not to say that Cobb wasn't wealthy but at the times of doing what he did fighting (with fans) was common and not like it was EVER in the NBgay. Hitting women (though not saying he get's a pass) was quite common and a hell of a lot less looked down upon then.

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by calvindog

This obviously will come as a shock to you but are you aware that different standards existed in different eras?

So you're not saying he didn't do these things, but that they were socially acceptable. I get it.

Back then it was socially acceptable to try to murder a man for intervening in your berating racist rant of another man?

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by Joshchisox08

Indeed there were. Not sure why he's being compared to Artest who is just a plain fucking nut job. Or Ray Rice these people have millions of dollars and are doing that crap.

Not to say that Cobb wasn't wealthy but at the times of doing what he did fighting (with fans) was common and not like it was EVER in the NBgay. Hitting women (though not saying he get's a pass) was quite common and a hell of a lot less looked down upon then.

Artest is considered a nut job because he went into the stands and beat a fan up. Cobb went into the stands and beat a veteran with no hands.

Cobb was fairly well off in 1919, when he savagely beat and hospitalized a woman for talking back to him.

I mean, you're right, things were different back then, but when people say he wasn't a violent, racist thug and a disciple human being they should probably take a look at what he has done.

[Joshchisox08]

I wouldn't call him a racist thug that's a bit off the mark. Did you read the book ?? It doesn't dismiss things that he had done but it sure proves he wasn't a racist like Stump made him out to be.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

So you're not saying he didn't do these things, but that they were socially acceptable. I get it.

Back then it was socially acceptable to try to murder a man for intervening in your berating racist rant of another man?

First, as the new book mentioned much of what you wrote has been debunked and Cobb is actually described as a supporter of integrating major league baseball and oftentimes a supporter of blacks. Second, your comparison of what was acceptable and deemed normal in society in 1910 is different from what existed 100 years later. To compare Ty Cobb's actions to Riley Cooper and Ray Rice and suggest that you are comparing apples to apples just makes zero sense. Are we actually having this discussion or do you not honestly see the point here? Bugs Bunny was a racist bastard too if you look at some of Warner Brothers' old cartoons.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by jhs5120

Artest is considered a nut job because he went into the stands and beat a fan up. Cobb went into the stands and beat a veteran with no hands.

Cobb was fairly well off in 1919, when he savagely beat and hospitalized a woman for talking back to him.

I mean, you're right, things were different back then, but when people say he wasn't a violent, racist thug and a disciple human being they should probably take a look at what he has done.

What the hell is a 'disciple' human being? Like one of Jesus's followers?

[jhs5120]

Originally Posted by calvindog

First, as the new book mentioned much of what you wrote has been debunked and Cobb is actually described as a supporter of integrating major league baseball and oftentimes a supporter of blacks. Second, your comparison of what was acceptable and deemed normal in society in 1910 is different from what existed 100 years later. To compare Ty Cobb's actions to Riley Cooper and Ray Rice and suggest that you are comparing apples to apples just makes zero sense. Are we actually having this discussion or do you not honestly see the point here? Bugs Bunny was a racist bastard too if you look at some of Warner Brothers' old cartoons.

He tried to murder someone. That wasn't debunked. Ignore any comparisons to today's players (which paint Cobb as a psychopath) and tell me whether murder was socially acceptable back in 1910? Then let me know if beating a black woman near to death for being uppity is something that a person "who wasn't racist" would do. I'll admit I wasn't around back in 1910, so I don't know what was the norm, but I have never heard of other players beating blacks in the streets and trying to murder people.

[calvindog]

You probably should read the book which counters much of what you say -- and actually was written by someone who did real research. Maybe then you'll become a disciple human being like Cobb too.

[Joshchisox08]

Originally Posted by calvindog

You probably should read the book which counters much of what you say -- and actually was written by someone who did real research. Maybe then you'll become a disciple human being like Cobb too.

+1

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by calvindog

This obviously will come as a shock to you but are you aware that different standards existed in different eras?

Well said, Jeff.

What has to be realized here is that 40 years after the Civil War ended....it really didn't end in many American's minds. Circa 1905 - 1908,
when the careers of guys like Cobb and Joe Jackson started, there were very few BB players from the "deep South". And, it wasn't easy at
the beginning for them to fit in.

Hey guys....after reading all these books on Cobb that have been written by guys who have an "agenda", try reading TY AND THE BABE.
Tom Stanton provides a fair and very interesting take on Cobb (especially Cobb's rivalry with the Babe....when Ruth pitched for Boston).

I'll not reveal anymore, but it's a great story on these two legends of Baseball, during their playing years and after. The Appendix is about
Ty Cobb versus Babe Ruth, Game by Game. It's fascinating to read the details of approx. 200 games that Cobb and Ruth played in from
May 11, 1915 > Sept 11, 1927.







TED Z
.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hey guys....after reading all these books on Cobb that have been written by guys who have an "agenda", try reading TY AND THE BABE.
Tom Stanton provides a fair and very interesting take on Cobb (especially Cobb's rivalry with the Babe....when Ruth pitched for Boston).





TED Z
.

Ted, I loved this book as well. I've read just about all the major bios on Cobb and will read the Leerhsen and Tim Hornbaker (War on the Basepaths) books which just came out.

[Orioles1954]

Jeff and others--

Probably one of the neatest projects I've had in the auction industry was reviewing the dozens of letters penned between Ty Cobb and Helene Champlain ranging over five decades from the 1910s through the 1950s. I'm not sure how Cobb and Champlain met and if there was "something more" to their relationship, but the letters were hardly dripping with sexual tension. What's more is that they were entirely absent of racial rhetoric, the ramblings of a psychotic mad man or even one mention of baseball. In short, they were really interesting book reviews with other personal anecdotes interspersed. In short, it helped me understand the depth of Cobb in greater detail....an astute and well-read business man who loved the weather in both California and Nevada