Help on Mantle/Maris

[Pickles]

Thoughts on these 2 cuts (Index Cards) I have all but given up on trying to read a good Mantle. Have not studied Maris in depth

[MikeKam]

Both good

[Duluth Eskimo]

I agree

[Mr. Zipper]

Don't know Maris as well as Mantle, but I think the Mantle is bad. Pressure and flow is off. Looks labored.

Haven't we seen this Mantle before? It looks familiar.

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

Don't know Maris as well as Mantle, but I think the Mantle is bad. Pressure and flow is off. Looks labored.

Haven't we seen this Mantle before? It looks familiar.

I was thinking the same thing.

Maybe it was the surface it was signed on, but I wouldn't want it.

There are "slow" spots, etc.


MantleNet54.jpg

[shelly]

I have to agree there is something about the Mantle that just does not look right. It seems there are to many stops and it was for sure written slowly.
Zip and Chris nailed this.

[MikeKam]

Paper for Mantle looks like it has creasing, maybe that's why. I'd have no problem buying it though.

[1952boyntoncollector]

On any high value autograph I think net54 members say fake 99% of time

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

On any high value autograph I think net54 members say fake 99% of time

Seriously?

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

On any high value autograph I think net54 members say fake 99% of time

C'mon

[Klrdds]

What is the definition of a "high value" autograph ?
Certainly that is a relative term for each individual collector's definition of high value. I certainly do not feel that a Mantle or Maris autograph is a high value autograph , except possibly on a contract; however, the evidence points to Mantle as well as Maris autographs being heavily and commonly forged.

[Pickles]

The abundance of Mantle forgeries makes for a high count on "not real" I get that

I have given up trying to figure Mantle's specifics. This one is tough. There is hesitation, but does not appear to fall in a classic "pattern" either.

I should have also asked my follow up hypothetical. Would either of the big 2 TPA's issue a cert?

[Lordstan]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

On any high value autograph I think net54 members say fake 99% of time

I call BS.
That is so totally not true. Net54 members call fake on autos they think are fake. Perhaps it's the fact that forgers typically fake high priced autos to maximize their profit, that make us say fake a lot. Perhaps it's that Mantle is one of the most faked autos ever, that make us say fake so much. Perhaps you should stick to cards, which seem to be your collecting interest, instead of coming to the auto side and insulting all of us.

[Lordstan]

Bernie,
I agree that the Mantle has some curious areas that would likely make me look for another example to purchase, even though it "might" be good.

As far as your last question, I would say it doesn't matter. If I don't think an auto is real, I wouldn't submit it. Even if they approved it, my opinion would still be the same and I would not sell it, so why waste the money.

Mark

[Mr. Zipper]

Originally Posted by Pickles

The abundance of Mantle forgeries makes for a high count on "not real" I get that

I have given up trying to figure Mantle's specifics. This one is tough. There is hesitation, but does not appear to fall in a classic "pattern" either.

I should have also asked my follow up hypothetical. Would either of the big 2 TPA's issue a cert?

In my opinion, it has characteristics of a trace job. The "shape" is spot on, but the pressure and flow are completely off. There is what appears to be a stop and restart at the top of the i, the c is rough... And look at the super slow beginning to the a. So he flicked quickly from the M to the a... Then took forever to get the a started? Notably heavy on the downstrokes and significantly lighter on the up strokes? That isn't how Mantle signed.

[111gecko]

Mantle = Bad
Maris = Good

[shelly]

This is not a high priced autograph so that shows your knowledge of autographs,
The people on here give there opinion for free and if they feel its bad that is what there opinion is. I have seen garbage passed by the big boys but again that is my opinion. I would rather take the word of certain four people on this site than all the Jame Spence's in the world.

[Runscott]

Great thread - both the morons, a visiting moron from the card side, a few autograph collectors and a few of the forum experts. What more could you ask for?

[thetruthisoutthere]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Great thread - both the morons, a visiting moron from the card side, a few autograph collectors and a few of the forum experts. What more could you ask for?

That's hilarious, Scott!!!

[Lordstan]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Great thread - both the morons, a visiting moron from the card side, a few autograph collectors and a few of the forum experts. What more could you ask for?

Hey. I resemble that remark.
Moron and Proud of it!

[jhs5120]

The Mantle looks good to me.

I also agree, I've noticed some forum members in particular say "no good" a disproportionate amount of times.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

Seriously?

Travis in disguise?

[Runscott]

Mark, sorry but I am both of the morons.

[Runscott]

Jhs5120, 'disproportionate' has no real meaning here. I would much rather see someone saying "bad" 'too much', as opposed to "good". "Bad" often only means "I would not buy it".

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

On any high value autograph I think net54 members say fake 99% of time

that just goes to show you how much fake shit there is out there 1952boy

Especially the high value ones.

While there are many of the characteristics of the Mantle I like, you cannot avoid the obvious. 5-6 starts and stops are too many for me. I like the "dropped ink" at the M's though, that's pretty hard to forge. At least a 50-50 legitimate signature, but I wouldn't want it PERIOD. If I don't want the Mantle, I don't want the Maris either.

[Mr. Zipper]

Also, in my view, people tend to post things for opinions in many cases because they have some doubt to begin with. Typically one would not ask for an opinion on a slam dunk good item purchased from a rock solid dealer.

So yes, it is possible items posted for opinions may weight heavily in the "bad" category.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

I call BS.
That is so totally not true. Net54 members call fake on autos they think are fake. Perhaps it's the fact that forgers typically fake high priced autos to maximize their profit, that make us say fake a lot. Perhaps it's that Mantle is one of the most faked autos ever, that make us say fake so much. Perhaps you should stick to cards, which seem to be your collecting interest, instead of coming to the auto side and insulting all of us.

LOL... I like the insults...coming & going

[Klrdds]

Originally Posted by Mr. Zipper

Also, in my view, people tend to post things for opinions in many cases because they have some doubt to begin with. Typically one would not ask for an opinion on a slam dunk good item purchased from a rock solid dealer.

So yes, it is possible items posted for opinions may weight heavily in the "bad" category.

I am always curious where people find some of the pieces they ask opinions about.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Klrdds

I am always curious where people find some of the pieces they ask opinions about.

There are plenty of autograph conversations going on among forum members via phone and email, but they rarely involve ebay (and when they do, it's because the autograph is probably legitimate), and never coaches corner or any other ridiculous source. It's generally over autographs from a legitimate source such as Leland's, REA, etc.

It's very different here - rare any more when the conversation is about an autograph from a trusted source. We used to argue about questionable high=end autographs from big auction houses, but now the crabgrass has taken over the lawn.

It's hard to take some of these threads very seriously, although I think the posters really are trying to learn most of the time.

[Pickles]

Scott, nice metaphor.....

Definitely trying to learn. Takes a while for the casual collector to learnt the "banana", the "Marino", etc, and this one had a lot of good features, but Zarelli makes a good point. I tried to rationalize it to "sobriety at time of signature", but I would have expected a trend to go along, since, needless to say, Mantle spent a fair amount of time in "less than sober" conditions.

The dialogue is appreciated.

My earlier question on the TPA was not with the intent of sending it there (costs almost as much to grade a Mantle as it costs to buy a Mantle) but rather to assess if this was a "tweener" (most opinions seem to be "it could be real, but I would not touch it" vs "outright fake"...) and how would a TPA opine on this one.

Once again, thanks to those who took the time to share thoughts
B