Original 12-card horizontal E91 strip may reveal 1909 printing format

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by steve B

My comments in blue

One of the limits to production is how many sheets could be fed per day. That limit was the same for most presses, both large and small. I've finally seen a hard stat on that and the manually fed presses were limited by the human feeder to 12-15 thousand sheets a day. Unless the individual items were a full sheet, higher yields come from larger sheets. I'd done some math in the past based on Scot Readers estimates of production, and with a 19x24 sheet they wouldn't have enough hours in three years to print all the cards from one press, and even two would have been a stretch. Doubling the size to 38x48 would allow them to produce four times as many cards. Quality would be the same. Most of the large posters of the time have few problems with quality.

And I will remind you, that you were the one who originally informed us that the standard size sheets available (circa 1909-1911) were 19" x 24".

Steve

Scot Reader in his book "Inside T206" estimated 10 Million T206's were produced between 1909 to the Spring of 1911. I think that number is pretty well in the "ball park".
I'll start with my Exclusive 12 example of a simulated sheet of 96 cards. For simplicity of numbers, I will round off this figure to a 100-card sheet. So, let's do the math.....

10,000,000 / 100 card sheet = 100K sheets

Spring 1909 >> Spring 1911 = 400 working days x 24 hours (3 shifts) = 9.6K hours

100K sheets / 9.6K hours = 10.4 sheets production per hour

I am sure that American Lithographic ran several 19" lithographic presses simultaneously in this operation. And, allowing for intervals of the 6-color process to dry, would
result in a rate of printing several T206 sheets per day per press. Therefore, production of 10 Million T206 cards over a period of 24 months was very workable.


.... v................................................. ................................. 19" wide x 24" long sheet .................................................. .................................v

Originally Posted by steve B

I must say I admire the work you've put into all these sets. Without it there would be a lot more confusion. I do wish there'd be a bit more open mindedness, but if sticking with groups of 12 and 19 inches eliminates confusion for you that's probably best. I'm still on the fence about both, as you've found some very convincing groups that seem to work well. I wish for the same things from the 17 camp, so don't take it as just you.

Steve

I truly appreciate these kind words of your's. As you know, I'm an Electronics Engineer, and I have to see mathematical congruence in these studies. And, the factor of 12
is replete within the various series that make up the T206 structure. Alternative proposed printing formats suggested by others on this forum fail to mathematically map in
to the T206 structure.
Furthermore, the 12 factor also fits into certain structures of the T205's. Example....the 12 subjects in the Minor League group. My T205 study is still a work in progress.


TED Z
.

[steve B]

From the centennial edition. Page 26-27 http://www.oldcardboard.com/t/t206/i...al-edition.pdf

"Using the one billion production number for Piedmont cigarettes in 1910 as a marker, one can extrapolate a T206 circulation in the neighborhood of 370 million. In particular, it is known that there were 10 cigarettes in a Piedmont pack, and that a typical Piedmont pack contained one T206 card. Assuming pack-only distribution of Piedmont cigarettes, and further assuming every Piedmont pack had a T206 card, the number of Piedmont-backed T206 cards produced in 1910 is estimable at about 100 million. Furthermore, it is known that approximately half of all T206 cards have a Piedmont reverse. Thus, one can surmise that the total number of T206s produced in 1910 was in the neighborhood of 200 million. Assuming an additional seven months of production in 1909 and three months in 1911 at equivalent rates to the 1910production, the total production estimate for T206 cards nearly doubles to a whopping 370 million!
On the other hand, actual circulation may well have been considerably lower. It has been reported that in 1910 and 1911 bird and fish subjects were distributed in some Old Mill, Piedmont, Sovereign and Sweet Caporal packs instead of baseball subjects. This would likely have meaningfully reduced the number of T206 cards circulated.

I went with half the high end, 185 million. And the high end of the daily output for a hand fed press. 15000/day
185000000 /96 = 1927083.33 sheets.
1927083.33 x 7 colors = 13489583 impressions
13489583 / 15000 sheets/day = 899.3 days of press time. (2.46 years, actually just about right........except.........

That's not counting time for setup, maintainance, and assorted other problems. Or a slower feeder only doing 12K sheets a day. Or the higher end of the estimate being accurate.

Multiple presses for sure.


I wonder - Are the approximate sales of American Caramel known? Maybe we can figure backwards to a possible print run for the E91s from that.

Steve B

[Leon]

Originally Posted by steve B

From the centennial edition. Page 26-27 http://www.oldcardboard.com/t/t206/i...al-edition.pdf

"Using the one billion production number for Piedmont cigarettes in 1910 as a marker, one can extrapolate a T206 circulation in the neighborhood of 370 million. In particular, it is known that there were 10 cigarettes in a Piedmont pack, and that a typical Piedmont pack contained one T206 card. Assuming pack-only distribution of Piedmont cigarettes, and further assuming every Piedmont pack had a T206 card, the number of Piedmont-backed T206 cards produced in 1910 is estimable at about 100 million. Furthermore, it is known that approximately half of all T206 cards have a Piedmont reverse. Thus, one can surmise that the total number of T206s produced in 1910 was in the neighborhood of 200 million. Assuming an additional seven months of production in 1909 and three months in 1911 at equivalent rates to the 1910production, the total production estimate for T206 cards nearly doubles to a whopping 370 million!
On the other hand, actual circulation may well have been considerably lower. It has been reported that in 1910 and 1911 bird and fish subjects were distributed in some Old Mill, Piedmont, Sovereign and Sweet Caporal packs instead of baseball subjects. This would likely have meaningfully reduced the number of T206 cards circulated.

I went with half the high end, 185 million. And the high end of the daily output for a hand fed press. 15000/day
185000000 /96 = 1927083.33 sheets.
1927083.33 x 7 colors = 13489583 impressions
13489583 / 15000 sheets/day = 899.3 days of press time. (2.46 years, actually just about right........except.........

That's not counting time for setup, maintainance, and assorted other problems. Or a slower feeder only doing 12K sheets a day. Or the higher end of the estimate being accurate.

Multiple presses for sure.


I wonder - Are the approximate sales of American Caramel known? Maybe we can figure backwards to a possible print run for the E91s from that.

Steve B

I haven't seen production numbers for American Caramel though they might exist somewhere....

[Pat R]

With the existing 31 x 23 1/2 Obak sheet and the 18 card E91A strip (approximately 27 inches) I think it would be fair to consider with production
estimates of 200-370 million that T206's were printed on sheets at least
as large as these.

[tedzan]

We have gone thru this numerous times in past threads over the years.

You cannot compare Schmidt Lithographic's (San Francisco) printing methods and machinery used to produce the OBAK's with
American Lithographic's (NYC) printing methods & machinery that produced the T206's, T205's, T209's, T210's, T211's, T213's,
T214's and T215's.

Where is your evidence that supports you making this claim ?

Furthermore, mathematically speaking, tell us how your "17" (or whatever) format maps into the following T206 structures ? ?


150 Series
-------------
150-only group = 12 subjects
150/350 series = 144 subjects

350-only series = 204 subjects
------------------

350/460 series = 60 subjects....plus the 6 super-prints (which were usually Double-Printed)
------------------

460-only series
------------------
Exclusive 12 group = 12 subjects
Subjects printed only with 460 type backs = 36

Southern Lgrs. = 48 subjects
-----------------



Hey guys............
It does not require Rocket Science to see that the common denominator in all these Series structures is a factor of 12.



TED Z
.

[tedzan]

Illustrated here is my concept of a 12 x 8 rows arrangement of the 66 subjects that we know American Litho printed together on one sheet. Note the 6 super-prints are shown Double-Printed.
I intended to Double-Print all 72 cards on a longer sheet comprising of 144 cards. But, the Net54 scan limit per post is 18 scans....therefore, only 108 cards are depicted.

v................................................. .................................................. ............... 19" wide x 24" long sheet .................................................. .................................................. ................v

v................................................. ....... Six super-prints ............................................v












TED Z
.

[Pat R]

Ted,
Where did I ever mention 17 ? Actually I think they were printed on a few different size sheets but that's just my opinion and your 12 factor is no different. It's a number that only fits in a few places without forcing it to fit.


Patrick