Lesson learned; Max bid on eBay

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I don’t understand how a snipe prevents shilling.

Example: You’re watching an item that has a current high bid of $1650 (it’s a legitimate bid). The seller is concerned that the item will go for less than the $2K he has into it, so he has his friend place a shill bid of $2000. The current high bid is now $1675. You really want the item and set your snipe to $2200. There are no other bidders. As the auction is about to end, your snipe is placed and you end up winning the item for $2025, still $175 less than your snipe amount.

Tell me, how did sniping protect you from shilling? Weren’t you still shilled up by $350, or am I missing something?

And yes, when consignors use hidden (illegal) reserves there's a limit to what a sniping service can do; however, it still provides some protection.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by calvindog

And yes, when consignors use hidden (illegal) reserves there's a limit to what a sniping service can do; however, it still provides some protection.

right if a seller knows what the current bid is he can have someone beat it and retract and then have another bidder bid right below the highest authority of the real bidder.....in the last 10 seconds this cant be done....seller will have to risk 'winning' the item with secret reserve if hes the high bidder end of auction..he not guaranteed to not be the highest bidder if cant do the retraction game...

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by calvindog

And yes, when consignors use hidden (illegal) reserves there's a limit to what a sniping service can do; however, it still provides some protection.

Jeff, no it doesn't. It works out the same. Let me give you the same example (using the same bid amounts), but this time you bid during the auction rather than snipe.

Example: You’re watching an item that has a current high bid of $1650 (it’s a legitimate bid). You really want the item and place a proxy bid (instead of a snipe) of $2200. You're then current high bidder at $1675. The seller is concerned that the item will go for less than the $2K he has into it, so he has his friend place a shill bid of $2000. The current high bid is now $2025, but you're still the current high bidder. There are no other bidders and you end up winning the auction for that amount.

In both examples, you're still artificially bid up by the same amount ($350). So, it made no difference whether you would have sniped our not.

I'm not being facetious, but I really don't get it unless somehow it makes you feel better about the situation to be artificially run up at the end of the auction (by placing a snipe) rather than to be artificially run up during the auction (by placing a proxy bid). To me, they're one in the same.

[Peter_Spaeth]

David, the fact that you can construct an example where it works out the same does not disprove the proposition that sniping provides some measure of protection. You're smarter than that. Obviously, it cannot protect against a hidden reserve, but at the same time it can protect against someone running your early bid up to see how high it is, then retracting and exposing it so it can be run up again to just under the max. Your hypothetical assumes the consignor or seller won't let it go below a certain amount. Not always the case -- sometimes the consignor or seller just wants to maximize.

[packs]

Are you bound to pay for this item? I'd argue I lost the auction. This whole scenario would seem pretty fishy to me and I don't think I'd pay.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by packs

Are you bound to pay for this item? I'd argue I lost the auction. This whole scenario would seem pretty fishy to me and I don't think I'd pay.

If I was the winning bidder and felt that I had been shilled, I MIGHT refuse to pay for the item. The OP's example looks really fishy to me.

But it really depends - there have been several times where I felt I had been shilled on en ebay item, but the price was so good that I wasn't willing to cut off my nose to spite my face. Sometimes I waited until after receiving the item, then complained to the seller. But usually I do nothing and just enjoy the item. It doesn't happen often enough for me to lose sleep over it.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

David, the fact that you can construct an example where it works out the same does not disprove the proposition that sniping provides some measure of protection. You're smarter than that. Obviously, it cannot protect against a hidden reserve, but at the same time it can protect against someone running your early bid up to see how high it is, then retracting and exposing it so it can be run up again to just under the max. Your hypothetical assumes the consignor or seller won't let it go below a certain amount. Not always the case -- sometimes the consignor or seller just wants to maximize.

Peter, I understand what you’re saying about the difference between a “hidden reserve” (“safety bid” or whatever else you want to call it) and someone running your bid up to expose your proxy, only to retract it so someone else can run you back up. Yes, my example was based on the hidden reserve and didn’t take into account the occasional bid retractor.

But I’ll say this. In the last year, I have won probably over 1000 items on eBay. My feedback shows 784 (within the last 12 months), but many of those were for multiple purchases (where the seller could only leave feedback once within a given time period) and it doesn't account for the purchases in which feedback wasn't left. In those 1000+ purchases, I don't think I once had a bidder retract his bid on an item I was bidding on.

I'm not naive, of course I know it (bid retractions) happens, but if it hasn't happened to me in the last 1000+ purchases, I have a hard time believing it happens to others on a regular basis. And I’m not saying it’s never been done to me. I’ve been on eBay for over 12 years, of course it has (but I honesly can't remember the last time). But in those situations (which are very rare) I usually just retract my bid as well just in case so I won’t be run up.

Sure, my examples were hypotheticals, but they were based on every day bidding habits. Your example (with the bid retraction) is a once in a blue moon type of thing because it really doesn't happen that often. My example happens way more often than your example.

I guess the bottom line is that we have different ways of dealing with bid retractors. Yours is to use a snipe, mine is to cancel my bid as well. That doesn’t make one way right and one way wrong. If a sniping service works for you, then great. To me, there are too many things that can go wrong (snipe not going off), so I'll pass.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I’ve been on eBay for over 12 years, of course it has (but I honesly can't remember the last time). But in those situations (which are very rare) I usually just retract my bid as well just in case so I won’t be run up.

The problem is when the bid is retracted right at the last minute (12 hrs before auction end), which is what happened with the OP. By retracting the bid at the last second, they have effectively revealed your max bid and put you in a situation where there is nothing you can do about it. That is very fishy and I probably would have alerted ebay and had them retract my bid over the phone, just out of principal.

Originally Posted by DanP

…
This morning that bid was retracted (conveniently just before the bid retraction limit of 12 hours of the end time).
…
I understand the "If you win the auction at what you bid, don't complain" thinking. However, this type of crap really irritates me. I tried to retract my bid but by the time I noticed what was going on it was within the 12 hour limit.

[Peter_Spaeth]

David -- surely you've seen the threads here about bidders in PWCC, Probstein and possibly elsewhere with incredible numbers of retractions. Now maybe spread out over as many auctions as there are, it's still a low percentage; or maybe the items you are bidding on are less likely to elicit that sort of misconduct than other types of items; but in any event it obviously happens with some frequency.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

David -- surely you've seen the threads here about bidders in PWCC, Probstein and possibly elsewhere with incredible numbers of retractions. Now maybe spread out over as many auctions as there are, it's still a low percentage; or maybe the items you are bidding on are less likely to elicit that sort of misconduct than other types of items; but in any event it obviously happens with some frequency.

Peter, I have seen the threads about all the bid retractions in Probstein's auctions. I haven't seen the same accusations about PWCC (if I have I really don't remember), but I'll take your word for it.

Either way, I avoid Probstein's auctions all together, so maybe I'm just not exposed to that (bid retractions) as much as some people?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Runscott

The problem is when the bid is retracted right at the last minute (12 hrs before auction end), which is what happened with the OP. By retracting the bid at the last second, they have effectively revealed your max bid and put you in a situation where there is nothing you can do about it. That is very fishy and I probably would have alerted ebay and had them retract my bid over the phone, just out of principal.

Scott, understood but, just to clarify, in the OPs situation the bidder didn't retract his bid (Dan misunderstood this). The bid was actually cancelled by the seller for certain reasons. But I get what you're saying - the result was the same - his proxy was exposed. Calling eBay and having them cancel your bid is a good solution too (assuming it is within that 12 hours and you can't do it yourself).

For the record, I still stand firm in my belief that the auction wasn't shilled.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Scott, understood but, just to clarify, in the OPs situation the bidder didn't retract his bid (Dan misunderstood this). The bid was actually cancelled by the seller for certain reasons. But I get what you're saying - the result was the same - his proxy was exposed. Calling eBay and having them cancel your bid is a good solution too (assuming it is within that 12 hours and you can't do it yourself).

For the record, I still stand firm in my belief that the auction wasn't shilled.

I forgot about that. If you can tell that it's a cancel rather than a retraction, I would contact the seller and express my concerns. If he was doing it to protect the auction (and legitimate bidders), I would not be concerned.

I rarely look for bid retractions on items I'm bidding on, but as you stated earlier - they probably don't occur that much.