Magie cards

vintagetoppsguy · #1 02-24-2015, 12:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

And you can do this on a slabbed card where you can't see the edges? Well you're a better man than I then.

Peter, that's not a fair question. The card doctors are not altering edges through a slab, how can I detect it through a slab? I can't detect it though a locked box either, so that statement is kind of ridiculous. I have to be able to see it the entire card.

The edges are about the only thing that you can't see through a slab though - everything else you can. On the cards in question, there is no doubt in my mind that if I had the cards in hand (slabbed or not) I could detect the alteration.

As far as edges go, even though you can't see them completely through the slab, you can still get a pretty good look. So, if I were buying a slabbed card and I thought there may be a problem with one of the edges, but couldn't tell for sure since it's in the slab, then I would pass.

Peter_Spaeth · #2 02-24-2015, 12:58 PM

David you are proving my point. A high percentage of cards on the market are slabbed, and thus no matter how good you might be at detecting alterations, and I will just take you at your word there, you and everyone else are at a huge disadvantage once the card is slabbed.

Rollingstone206 · #3 02-24-2015, 01:33 PM

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drcy · #4 02-24-2015, 02:09 PM

I would use a combination of magnification (Scott and I were looking at 200x power, by the way), gloss (including in comparison to other T206s), black light, infrared and provenance.

Duly note that it was provenance (past sales) that identified these cards. Card collectors often dismiss provenance, but if you can document that a Magie has been around in that state for twenty years, the sage collector would pay a premium. On the other hand, a forger can't show where he obtained the cards-- because he made it.

As board member Jim Stinson once said about another form of collectible, “Authentic autographs have a history or source … forgeries do not. They just ‘appear’.”

Obviously, provenance isn't fool proof and has obvious limitations, including because rare cards really can be found in shoe box collections and in attics and inherited and because for every forged JFK signed baseball is a made up story where it came from, but it is something collectors should keep in mind. And I included it in my list as a supplement to, not a replacement of physically examining the card.

P.s., forgeries, alterations and shilling are all bad. Why is there this debate? As my dad would say "The answer isn't either/or. It's a both/and." Or if I asked "Where would you rather live, Siberia or the Sahara Desert?," he'd say "That's easy. Neither."

Rollingstone206 · #5 02-24-2015, 02:46 PM

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SMPEP · #6 02-24-2015, 03:41 PM

There's a very simply solution to card doctoring (and shilling for that matter) ... stop worrying so freaking much about the condition! (Okay, doesn't stop this Magie doctoring but stops most doctoring).

I honestly can't understand the fascination with PSA 10s. A decent chance they were altered or even more likely, favorably graded by a high paying client of the grading company. Even IF they happened to be legit ... who give's a rat's butt whether the corners are perfect or near perfect? Does your enjoyment increase because your microscope says one is better? Why is a 9 worse? Why is a 7 worse? Heck why is a 4 worse?

Why are you paying a premium for ANY grade over the next one? You essentially have two typoes of cards. Common cards that you can buy raw (with whatever levels of flaws you accept - so maybe a nominal price difference for one versus another) and rare cards that you buy authenticated (because they are rare and you want to be assured they are real). But why does it matter if that "authentication" is an A or a PSA 1-10? Either you have a real 1952 Mantle or you don't. It's a binary event.

So why are you paying more for a PSA 5 Mantle versus a PSA 4? The only answer - because you are using the card as an investment so you can profit later.

I know, I know some of you will (ridiculously) claim "I don't like creases/corner wear/whatever." But if you are honest with yourself, your answer will be you don't like creases because the industry has trained you your whole life to not like creases/corner wear because you won't get your profit whenever you choose to sell. You didn't care about creases when you were a kid - because you put these in the spokes of your bike. You collected for fun, not profit.

So the people complaining about shilling and doctoring ... are the exact same people that are trying to make a profit off the hobby by selling cards ... and they are the exact reason the practice of shilling and card doctoring is happening in the first place.

Too funny.

(Now watch the dealer crowd crucify me. Can't threaten those profits by introducing rationale thought!)

ullmandds · #7 02-24-2015, 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMPEP

There's a very simply solution to card doctoring (and shilling for that matter) ... stop worrying so freaking much about the condition! (Okay, doesn't stop this Magie doctoring but stops most doctoring).

I honestly can't understand the fascination with PSA 10s. A decent chance they were altered or even more likely, favorably graded by a high paying client of the grading company. Even IF they happened to be legit ... who give's a rat's butt whether the corners are perfect or near perfect? Does your enjoyment increase because your microscope says one is better? Why is a 9 worse? Why is a 7 worse? Heck why is a 4 worse?

Why are you paying a premium for ANY grade over the next one? You essentially have two typoes of cards. Common cards that you can buy raw (with whatever levels of flaws you accept - so maybe a nominal price difference for one versus another) and rare cards that you buy authenticated (because they are rare and you want to be assured they are real). But why does it matter if that "authentication" is an A or a PSA 1-10? Either you have a real 1952 Mantle or you don't. It's a binary event.

So why are you paying more for a PSA 5 Mantle versus a PSA 4? The only answer - because you are using the card as an investment so you can profit later.

I know, I know some of you will (ridiculously) claim "I don't like creases/corner wear/whatever." But if you are honest with yourself, your answer will be you don't like creases because the industry has trained you your whole life to not like creases/corner wear because you won't get your profit whenever you choose to sell. You didn't care about creases when you were a kid - because you put these in the spokes of your bike. You collected for fun, not profit.

So the people complaining about shilling and doctoring ... are the exact same people that are trying to make a profit off the hobby by selling cards ... and they are the exact reason the practice of shilling and card doctoring is happening in the first place.

Too funny.

(Now watch the dealer crowd crucify me. Can't threaten those profits by introducing rationale thought!)

Not so sure I agree with your boast...as most on this board are NOT the people spending ridiculous amounts of $$$$ on high grade cards?

I think most of us are "Collector" grade collectors just looking to "clean up" the hobby so it is fun and safe.

For me...the problem is that these inflated prices for high grades/altered/shilled cards...trickle down to the armpit cards that I want to buy.

Peter_Spaeth · #8 02-24-2015, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMPEP

There's a very simply solution to card doctoring (and shilling for that matter) ... stop worrying so freaking much about the condition! (Okay, doesn't stop this Magie doctoring but stops most doctoring).

I honestly can't understand the fascination with PSA 10s. A decent chance they were altered or even more likely, favorably graded by a high paying client of the grading company. Even IF they happened to be legit ... who give's a rat's butt whether the corners are perfect or near perfect? Does your enjoyment increase because your microscope says one is better? Why is a 9 worse? Why is a 7 worse? Heck why is a 4 worse?

Why are you paying a premium for ANY grade over the next one? You essentially have two typoes of cards. Common cards that you can buy raw (with whatever levels of flaws you accept - so maybe a nominal price difference for one versus another) and rare cards that you buy authenticated (because they are rare and you want to be assured they are real). But why does it matter if that "authentication" is an A or a PSA 1-10? Either you have a real 1952 Mantle or you don't. It's a binary event.

So why are you paying more for a PSA 5 Mantle versus a PSA 4? The only answer - because you are using the card as an investment so you can profit later.

I know, I know some of you will (ridiculously) claim "I don't like creases/corner wear/whatever." But if you are honest with yourself, your answer will be you don't like creases because the industry has trained you your whole life to not like creases/corner wear because you won't get your profit whenever you choose to sell. You didn't care about creases when you were a kid - because you put these in the spokes of your bike. You collected for fun, not profit.

So the people complaining about shilling and doctoring ... are the exact same people that are trying to make a profit off the hobby by selling cards ... and they are the exact reason the practice of shilling and card doctoring is happening in the first place.

Too funny.

(Now watch the dealer crowd crucify me. Can't threaten those profits by introducing rationale thought!)

I agree with this up to a point. I collect lower grades than I used to because I got sick and tired of worrying whether cards were trimmed or not and getting really pissed off when I thought they were. Now I don't pretend that people don't alter midgrade cards -- they do because there is money to be made at all levels of card doctoring -- but I think a card with a modest amount of even corner wear is still much less likely to be trimmed (the alteration that bothers me the most) than a higher grade card with sharp corners.

That said, I don't agree with the "blame the victim" pitch. Card doctors are scum and it's sad that law enforcement and the Net 54 community seem to have made shill bidding a much higher priority.

darwinbulldog · #9 02-25-2015, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SMPEP

But if you are honest with yourself, your answer will be you don't like creases because the industry has trained you your whole life to not like creases/corner wear because you won't get your profit whenever you choose to sell. You didn't care about creases when you were a kid.

You wouldn't say that if you had seen how much I cried when my friend's little sister folder up my '87 Fleer Wally Joyner.

But that was months ago of course.

Rollingstone206 · #10 02-24-2015, 08:36 PM

...

steve B · #11 02-25-2015, 10:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rollingstone206

This question is open to anyone.

I answered in my long post, so maybe it got lost.

Short answer - Yes, but if it's done well it can't be detected cheaply.

Slightly longer - Nearly all solvents will leave traces behind, and those traces are detectable. And very few will remove all traces of the ink or substance removed. I don't own the required equipment, and I don't believe any of the TPGs do either. Plus they won't take the time to do the test.

Steve Birmingham

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