Greatest quarterback you have seen?

[rats60]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

Ask yourself how many of the offensive players that Brady has played with (for any extended period time) will make it to Canton. Not the in-and-outs like Randy Moss - I mean a sustained period of time - it ain't many I can think of. Sort of puts his skill in perspective for me.

Welker, Gronk and Moss are as good any other qb has had. They are all potential hofers. Montana had Rice, that's it. Clark or Taylor weren't as good as those guys and Montana won 2 without Rice. Manning had Harrison who is struggling to make the hof. Wayne sucks, all he did is quit on his route costing Manning his 2nd Super Bowl. He does have Welker helping extend his career. Marino, Elway and Favre had little to help them.

Brady also had the greatest kicker of all time. How many does he win without him? He has had great defenses on the first 3 and he knew what defense the other team was in. I'm still waiting for Brady to win something without cheating. Just look at his playoff record between Spygate and Deflategate and that tells you what you need to know about him. He's the Barry Bonds of the NFL.

[HRBAKER]

Wrong. Barry Bonds never won anything.
His postseason BA = .245 including three postseasons where he batted under .200.

Moss was there for 3+ years - he will be a HOF. He was one bf he got there.
Welker has a shot - Wayne has just a good a shot to me and certainly Harrison does too.
Gronk looks like he is well on his way but he has shown a proclivity to get injured.

Id also say Edgerrin James will be a HOFer long bf any back Brady played an extended period of time with.
Same can be said for Roger Craig.

I don't remember the Wayne play but I would also say that playing less than ordinary against the Seattle D cost Manning his second Super Bowl as well.
Good thing Tom knew exactly what D they would be in every play this time around - especially the fourth quarter.

You've added a whole new spin to this though - Tom owes his success largely to his kicker.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

I don't remember the Wayne play but I would also say that playing less than ordinary against the Seattle D cost Manning his second Super Bowl as well.
Good thing Tom knew exactly what D they would be in every play this time around - especially the fourth quarter.

You've added a whole new spin to this though - Tom owes his success largely to his kicker.

You must not watch the Super Bowl when NE doesn't play. In the Colts-Saints SB, Manning was driving to tie the game in the 4th quarter. Manning audibled to a quick pass against a Saints blitz. For some reason Wayne half-assed his route and it resulted in a pick 6 that put the game away.

You really don't think Brady owes a big part of his success to Adam Vinateri? If he doesn't make two kicks in the snow vs. the Raiders, Brady doesn't come close to SB 36, won on his last second FG. SB 38 also won on his last second FG. Be glad Scott Norwood wasn't your kicker or Mike Vanderjagt who was one of the most accurate kickers of all time, but missed key playoff FGs against the Dolphins and Steelers, ending two Manning playoff runs.

[HRBAKER]

I simply said I don't remember the play, I didn't say it didn't happen. Manning had ample chance to win a 2nd Super Bowl last year again - he came up noticeably short, again. He has 3 TD passes in 132 SB pass attempts. That's not all lazy route running.

They're not my kickers - I'm an Arizona Cardinals fan not a Pats fan. And no, I don't think Brady or NE owes an inordinate amount of their success to their kickers. It's an interesting narrative though. It is certainly better to have a good one than one that sucks. At the end of the day someone has to put the kicker in the position to win it for you.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by rats60

Brady also had the greatest kicker of all time. How many does he win without him? He has had great defenses on the first 3 and he knew what defense the other team was in. I'm still waiting for Brady to win something without cheating. Just look at his playoff record between Spygate and Deflategate and that tells you what you need to know about him. He's the Barry Bonds of the NFL.

While Vinateri is among the best, he's not even the best the pats have had. He was great in bad weather, which counts for a lot here, but was pretty average on longer kicks ~ 50+. Gostkowski is 3% better overall, and much better beyond 50 yards 13/17 compared to 23/41. Vinateri has been much better indoors at Indy. He gets a lot of props for kicking so many winners in big games. Only time will tell if Gostkowski keeps up the pace he's on.

I'm a Pats fan and a big fan of both Brady and Vinateri but wouldn't rank either as #1 all time at their position. Brady wins a lot, and with supposedly very little, but there's always at least one very good receiver and a bunch of guys who would be farther up the depth chart anywhere else. That's makes for odd statistical stuff because of a system that emphasizes individual matchups and depth. Not many players will put up huge numbers in NE, but more will get decent playing time. The exceptions are the guys like Moss, Welker, and Gronk. And even Gronk has games where he's not a primary part of the offense. Hard to keep him out of it, but there's games where you can tell he's doing more blocking and pulling defenders away from the play than being the primary receiver.

To keep on topic- I've been thinking over the original question and keep coming back to some interviews with players who mentioned Bradshaw as the smartest player they'd played with or against and that he called his own plays. If that's correct, I'd have to lean toward him as the best I've seen.

Steve B

[HRBAKER]

Steve as more of an interested observer - have any of NE's skill folks ever left and "blown up" somewhere else?

[steve B]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

Steve as more of an interested observer - have any of NE's skill folks ever left and "blown up" somewhere else?

Short answer - Hardly any that I can recall, and none recently (Plunkett won a SB after he left but was pretty much the same just on a better team)

Longer answer -
Quite a few have come to NE either underused or coming from roles that weren't appropriate - like Welker. He was really good in Miami, but they had him only doing returns the first couple years - Averaged around 3 targets a game. His last year there he averaged 6 targets a game, but only caught about half. Totally killed NE though. And while he's not Mannings favorite he's still doing very well for the number of times he's thrown to. Best catch % since 07 not as good yards/catch, but he is 33 and a most guys who go over the middle as much as he does/did drastically slow down after 30.

Some came here with supposed "issues" Like Corey Dillon. Yeah he bitched a lot after a few years in Cincinnati, but that team was really bad the whole time he was there but kept claiming they were going to get it together. 7 years of that along with the constant turnover of very mediocre QBs would make anyone interested in winning a bit grouchy.
Moss also came in as a washed up malcontent. I was actually disappointed they took him instead of T.O. (So yes, my football skills judgements may be a bit suspect )
Many of those guys were at or near the end of their careers and got in a year or a few more playing at a decent level. Or in the case of Moss a very high level.

A LOT of NE players who have left, skills players or otherwise have done well after leaving. Not blown up, but not much falloff if any. With the number of supporting cast getting moved every year it was and still is fun to see how many EX NE players were in any particular game. Almost all the playoff contenders had a couple.

What fascinates me is the system - I've watched a few shows that actually had access to Bellicheck coaching, and even the approach is somewhat different than some coaches. And it all seems to be geared towards having the people who are happy with a role, and not overloading the guys with potential. One interview with a player who'd been and gone in a year or two was interesting. The player said his first team basically handed him a thousand pages of plays and said "learn this by the end of camp" Then sent him out on plays he wasn't suited for or into bad matchups. Result? Poor performance and poor confidence. Patriots? He said they had him learn basic stuff in camp but focused on skills and work. First week he had a total of two plays he had to know inside out and had to know what situation they thought those plays might be used. And when that situation came up he had to be standing there ready to go in. Week 2 a few more plays. And if he was ready he got to go in on plays he was suited for usually with a decent matchup. Result? Less playing time fewer plays, but far better results and very high confidence.
(I don't have the skills for sure, but I've heard that knowing you can do what's needed to compete is way more important than it might seem)

Steve B

[itjclarke]

Steve- interesting comments regarding Bellicheck. I've thought, throughout the Pats' run that they've created ideal niche roles for many of their players. Welker is a great example, as was Woodhead and now Edelman. Once these guys are inserted in their role, they perfect that role. Then through a well crafted game plan and a QB who executes it, they can all flourish within that role... rarely stepping outside it. I have seen on occasion Welker and Edelman beat guys deep, but it's been far and few between. I saw Moss catch a few underneath, but that was few and far between.

I don't think you see such clearly defined player roles on many/any other NFL teams... and with these role players contributing at "star" levels. The Spurs over the years are very similar in basketball, and this year maybe the Hawks/Warriors.

Over the offseason, the Niners were reportedly interested in signing Edelman, however I have little faith they'd have come anywhere close to using him as effectively as the Pats have.. Especially with Kaep at QB.

[steve B]

Of course the flip side of that is guys like Troy Brown who did reasonably well when he was needed as a defensive back, and the bunch of other guys who have stepped outside any traditional role. Edelman throwing, Vinateri throwing for a TD, Vrabel with 8 TDs as a receiver(Plus two more with KC after) I'm sure there are a few I've forgotten.

Brown was "cut" a few times to make cap room, and usually went "fishing" and wasn't available for other teams to talk to. Then was signed just before camp. A very odd sort of flexibility that really requires trust on both sides.

Steve B

Originally Posted by itjclarke

Steve- interesting comments regarding Bellicheck. I've thought, throughout the Pats' run that they've created ideal niche roles for many of their players. Welker is a great example, as was Woodhead and now Edelman. Once these guys are inserted in their role, they perfect that role. Then through a well crafted game plan and a QB who executes it, they can all flourish within that role... rarely stepping outside it. I have seen on occasion Welker and Edelman beat guys deep, but it's been far and few between. I saw Moss catch a few underneath, but that was few and far between.

I don't think you see such clearly defined player roles on many/any other NFL teams... and with these role players contributing at "star" levels. The Spurs over the years are very similar in basketball, and this year maybe the Hawks/Warriors.

Over the offseason, the Niners were reportedly interested in signing Edelman, however I have little faith they'd have come anywhere close to using him as effectively as the Pats have.. Especially with Kaep at QB.

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by steve B

Of course the flip side of that is guys like Troy Brown who did reasonably well when he was needed as a defensive back, and the bunch of other guys who have stepped outside any traditional role. Edelman throwing, Vinateri throwing for a TD, Vrabel with 8 TDs as a receiver(Plus two more with KC after) I'm sure there are a few I've forgotten.

Brown was "cut" a few times to make cap room, and usually went "fishing" and wasn't available for other teams to talk to. Then was signed just before camp. A very odd sort of flexibility that really requires trust on both sides.

Steve B

I loved Troy Brown when he played DB those couple years. Edelman played some DB as well (both out of necessity). They, and Woodhead were all incredibly versatile.. pure football players who will do anything asked. I'm sure Edelman could kick/punt too.

I'm not really saying these guys can only do one thing.. But that their roles are so well utilized, they can flourish within them. I don't think Edelman likely becomes a star anywhere else. I'm not sure he even gets a shot anywhere else, but the Pats have a knack at finding malleable pieces that can fit their system. Edelman is a great slot guy, and also nicely fills the roll of the old wing or "fly back" on those quick running sweeps. I'm guessing he'll pass out of the look at some point too.

Player versatility is always a good thing. Guys like Harbaugh (Roman) made a living with that at Stanford and the NFL. He could just as easily pass out of a two TE, one fullback, jumbo package as he could out of 4-5 wides, just because his players could perform both rolls. The Niners were at their peak when they had both Delaney Walker and Vernon Davis because both could run block, allowing the Niners to pound it, and both were really fast, creating major mismatches... Thus the Niners could accomplish a wider range of things out of a single look than is the norm. This, when working was a nightmare for defenses trying to sub to the right personnel packages, and make their calls. I think losing Delaney this past year was a pretty big blow to the Niners, because they lost some of that versatility.

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by rats60

Welker, Gronk and Moss are as good any other qb has had. They are all potential hofers. Montana had Rice, that's it. Clark or Taylor weren't as good as those guys and Montana won 2 without Rice. Manning had Harrison who is struggling to make the hof. Wayne sucks, all he did is quit on his route costing Manning his 2nd Super Bowl. He does have Welker helping extend his career. Marino, Elway and Favre had little to help them.

... I'm still waiting for Brady to win something without cheating. Just look at his playoff record between Spygate and Deflategate and that tells you what you need to know about him. He's the Barry Bonds of the NFL.

You're all over the map. First, Taylor was a great receiver and an absolute physical specimen when he played. I'm guessing your opinion isn't going much further than his statistics here, but at 6' 1" he had the leaping ability (think 40"+) to play like a guy 6' 5". He was incredibly strong (routinely ran through safeties/corners), was an incredible blocker, had great hands and ability to adjust to the ball, and had equal to or better than run after catch skills than Rice (watch highlights). If he'd been a number 1, or if the Niners threw as much/ran as many play as current offenses, he could have been a 1200-1500 yard guy routinely. Clark and Soloman were very good receivers too.

Montana also had Craig, who won't make the HOF, but at the time was one of strongest runners in the league, and was no doubt the most versatile back (original Marshall Faulk, but stronger). Craig and Tyler (another 1,000+ guy) overlapped for a few years, with Craig playing as fullback. Except for 1981 the Niners were stacked offensively, also having a string of very productive WRs/TEs/FBs (TE/FB being very important to the old West Coast offense). Manning had Edge, and used the play action pass as well as anyone in his time. Play action success is wholly dependent on a good running game.. and it's a heck of a lot easier to throw when LBs, even safeties take 1-2 steps forward before back peddling. Dillon was probably the only true #1 (top 10) back Brady's had, and think he was only on one SB team. This year against the Seahawks, the Pats' short passing game (especially early) basically took the place of any running game. Brady and Co executed it to near perfection.

Welker won't sniff the hall of fame, but I'll give you he was a very very good receiver for Brady. On Welkers level though, you could then make arguments for the very good guys Marino had- Marks brothers (Duper and Clayton), the whole lot of guys Favre had- Sterling Sharpe (HOFer if not for neck injury), Anotinio Freeman/Robert Brooks/Donald Driver/Chmura/K Jackson/J Walker (all top performers at their peak), and the incredible trio Elway had when he finally won the SB- Ed McCaffrey, Rod Smith, Terrell Davis.

Brady's cast (save for maybe 2007) has never been as dynamic as these other QBs'.

[itjclarke]

BTW- to say Reggie Wayne sucks based on one play (which I doubt you really understand) is crazy. One, Porter's jump was incredible, two, how do you know how Wayne is supposed to run his route on any given look? Their inside guy is running a slant as well.. do you want him to run a hard slant up his back? Over his career he's been one of the most reliably consistent receivers in the league. He's not the most flashy or athletic, but gets open and catches the ball. I can assure QBs love his type of receiver because he's a dependable safety net and they know where he's going to be. He is also a likely HOFer (as is Harrison, and Edge). Add Stokely as the slot guy, Dallas Clark at TE and I think it's tough to argue Manning's Colts teams weren't totally stacked.

... and look what he's had in Denver?!?!? Demarious, Decker, Julius Thomas, and any of the string of productive RBs.

Manning does get great credit for play calling, spreading the ball around, giving his guys an opportunity to succeed.. but you cannot even compare the skill guys Brady has had to the ones he's had.

[HRBAKER]

Stop it Ian, you're making too much sense.

Manning is a GREAT QB, Brady is better, particularly @ nut cuttin' time.

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

Stop it Ian, you're making too much sense.

Manning is a GREAT QB, Brady is better, particularly @ nut cuttin' time.

I keep telling myself to just move on, to ignore these threads... (cue Pacino voice) but they keep pulling me back in!

[FenwayFaithful]

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