Stupidity Rules the Day!!!!

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Even with this weird anger of yours, you should be able to see that screwing up the first half play would not end the game as a loss, while the final interception did. This isn't rocket science.

You're correct, screwing up the first half play would not end the game as a loss. But if the first half play had gone awry then we wouldn't be having this discussion because the interception wouldn't have had an impact on the game - because of only being 4 points down, they would have been 11 points down. You're right, this isn't rocket science.

Edited to add: When I complained about the poor Green Bay play calling in the NFC championship game, you dismissed my comments and bragged about how well Seattle executed when they had to. Now you want to use poor play calling as an excuse instead of admitting that it was perfect execution by the Patriots.

[D. Bergin]

It wasn't a bad call because they threw the ball instead of handing it to Lynch. It was a bad call because it was a slant pattern to the middle of the field where everybody is already bunched up, because they are on the 1 Yard line..........and the throw itself barely made the line of scrimmage, let alone the goal line.

Wilson had plenty of time and protection. There was no reason for him to get rid of the ball that fast, with 2 downs left to get the TD. If they were going to throw it, the ball should have been pulled back to look for an obvious open guy in the endzone, and if it's not there, throw it away.

[nebboy]

The most stupid part of the game was the half time show. Game was a good one from the standpoint of my teams not playing. Close game untill the end drama and good plays!

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by D. Bergin

It wasn't a bad call because they threw the ball instead of handing it to Lynch. It was a bad call because it was a slant pattern to the middle of the field where everybody is already bunched up, because they are on the 1 Yard line..........and the throw itself barely made the line of scrimmage, let alone the goal line.

Wilson had plenty of time and protection. There was no reason for him to get rid of the ball that fast, with 2 downs left to get the TD. If they were going to throw it, the ball should have been pulled back to look for an obvious open guy in the endzone, and if it's not there, throw it away.

Agreed. And there was an obvious open guy in the endzone - Lynch. Watch the replay guys, he was wide open. Russell missed him.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

You're correct, screwing up the first half play would not end the game as a loss. But if the first half play had gone awry then we wouldn't be having this discussion because the interception wouldn't have had an impact on the game - because of only being 4 points down, they would have been 11 points down. You're right, this isn't rocket science.

Edited to add: When I complained about the poor Green Bay play calling in the NFC championship game, you dismissed my comments and bragged about how well Seattle executed when they had to. Now you want to use poor play calling as an excuse instead of admitting that it was perfect execution by the Patriots.

I didn't brag - I don't play football for the Seahawks. But now you're doing the 'straw man' thing. I haven't said that the Patriots were lucky, have I? It's two totally different situations and I do believe that the Packers made bad calls as well. The failure to return the interception with 5 minutes to go is just one example. But you also disagree with me on that...

This game had nothing to do with luck, and everything to do with play-calling and execution. Belechick, in my opinion, was making a huge gaff by not calling time-out in the last 45 seconds of the game. But perhaps he did that to pressure Carroll into making quick decisions that might result in an error? If so, I commend him. In any case, I'm not a coach or a player - just a fan. I'll get over this a lot quicker than they will, as will all the Seahawks fans. So the gloating isn't accomplishing anything other than making us wonder what your deal is? <== get the reference?

And no, I am not using 'poor play calling' as an excuse. If you have read my other posts, you will find one that commends Brady on his two touchdown drives, and that also posits that the Pats might very well have stopped the Seahawks on a goal-line stand, even if they ran Lynch at them.

I could toss out hypotheticals about how the Patriots fans, you and Bill Gregory and others, would have reacted if the Seahawks would have won, but that would be caca.

It was truly a great and classic game.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Runscott

It was truly a great and classic game.

True. I'll leave it at that.

And, FWIW, by no means am I Pats fan.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

True. I'll leave it at that.

And, FWIW, by no means am I Pats fan.

I now you aren't, and I would not have responded to your posts the way I did if I thought it would cause you and me to get pissed at one another. It really is just football - fans have to keep things in perspective.

I am still a Dallas Cowboys fan first, but Seahawks a strong second. So this has been an up-and-down playoffs for me. The Cowboy loss was depressing, but the play last night was horrifying. Not kidding. It would have been a lot easier to see the Patriots do to us what we did to the Broncos last year.

But I did have a great moment of perspective - I visited a kid in King County jail right before the game and he showed noticeable mental improvement. I got on the bus and made it back to Tacoma just in time for kick-off. It was tough leaving Seattle, as downtown was crazy - cops on horses, streets fenced off, etc. If the beer lines had been shorter, maybe I would have stayed. I thought about that kid last night after the game and realized that this is only football. If I were part of the Seahawk team, it would be real life, but it really isn't.

[HRBAKER]

It was by sheer luck on that incredible reception that they were in a position to score in the first place, Cinderella just turned back into a pumpkin 20 seconds too early. They didn't give the game to anyone - The Pats (Tom Brady) carved them up for 14 points on a near perfect performance in the 4th quarter to even be close - and that's the best D in football as we have been reminded ad nauseum for the past two weeks. Look at it this way - they simply gave back the one Brady gave them in the first half in the end zone.

Jeff
(also far from a Pats fan)

[Runscott]

Jeff - you are right on.

Before the game, the analyses that made the most sense to me were that Brady's short pass game was similar to what the Chargers had used to beat Seattle, and there was no indication that Seattle was prepared to react any differently. We did a good job of making quick tackles the first half, but just got torn to pieces in the second half for yards-after-catch. The Kearse catch was as close to a miracle as you'll see.

[nolemmings]

While the Kearse catch was indeed lucky, the Seahawks were moving the ball down the field anyway, and New England did not show great signs of stopping them. The ball would have been inside the 40 with a minute or so to go had that pass to Kearse dropped incomplete. Who knows what happens. The point is if that ball gets handed off to Lynch we almost certainly have a different champion and Brady not only does not win MVP, he is likely considered the second best QB on the field.

Just edited to add that I'm not taking anything away from the Patriots, and thank both teams for a very entertaining game.

[nolemmings]

It was the worst play call I can ever recall in a Super Bowl. Don't tell me it takes a perfect defensive effort to stop that play. SOOOOOOO many things could go wrong-- ball glances off a lineman's helmet or fingers in the very narrow window provided; ball bounces off of receiver's hands or chest plate, all in the most congested part of the field where about a dozen guys could start volley-balling it around. That play is major-league dumbass in game one of the pre-season, let alone with the trophy on the line.

RUN the F'n ball, twice if you have to. One yard and possibly the toughest RB in the game, who just ripped off four, and you call that play. Unreal.

[nolemmings]

BTW, I disagree that the first-half ending play was a bad decision. If you can't get a 20 yard pass play done within 5 seconds you are no Super Bowl QB. I guess there was some risk of INT depending on the type of pass play (SEE BONEHEAD DECISION AT END OF GAME), but the strategic decision was fine by me. I didn't think it would work and they'd have to settle for 3, but as a neutral fan who doesn't like either team I thought the decision to go for it was fine.

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

BTW, I disagree that the first-half ending play was a bad decision. If you can't get a 20 yard pass play done within 5 seconds you are no Super Bowl QB. I guess there was some risk of INT depending on the type of pass play (SEE BONEHEAD DECISION AT END OF GAME), but the strategic decision was fine by me. I didn't think it would work and they'd have to settle for 3, but as a neutral fan who doesn't like either team I thought the decision to go for it was fine.

I also agree that the call at the end of the half wasn't bad. IMO it was really gutsy and definitely risky, but I've always seen R Wilson as a guy who has incredible situational awareness. I'm guessing they've practiced those sorts plays with a clock and know nearly exactly how quickly they can execute certain routes. 6 seconds is really tight, and I expect most teams (80%+) in the league would kick there. However Carroll had total trust in Wilson to execute the throw if it was there, and throw it away if not... no progression, no running around, just cut it loose... in this case guessing it was to find a one on one matchup pre-snap, throw to the back shoulder if the DB is off, over top if he beats him, or out of bounds. What's amazing, they still had 2 seconds left after.

As mentioned before, I think the call at the end was definitely questionable, but I think there's more to this. Was thinking about it more today, and Carroll was so defensive he was almost on the offensive (in a classy way). He repeated the same thing almost verbatim many many times. If anyone's seen "The Lives of Others" one of the points the lead character, an East German Stasi interrogator says, is that when someone's lying, they repeat the same phrases and sentences over and over. Now, I don't really think he's fully lying or there's some great conspiracy, but I do think he was covering for Bevell (or someone) big time.

The Pats acknowledged they weren't in true goal line (they had 3 DBs), but according to Carroll the Seahawks subbed to a 3 receiver set to counter the Pats' goal line D (2 DBs). This means someone in the booth (usually assistant to OC upstairs with binocs) didn't recognize the Pats' personnel package correctly. They also subbed really late, as they'd had a full back and I think 2 TEs on the prior 1st down run.. this is why 30+ seconds ran off. Once all the players were on the field, Wilson still had to shift Lynch and Baldwin to the left just prior to the snap, so I think things were in flux until the last moments, which makes me think there was a lot of indecisiveness in their play calling booth. As for Wilson's "decision" to hit the slant on that play... I'd think this is probably almost as pre-determined as a throw gets (similar to a screen pass). It's a pick play, so it's all about timing up with that pick.. and he wants to hit the slant immediately after he crosses the guy setting the pick (which is very illegal). From Wilson's POV, I think he saw the route quickly develop like he'd expect and Lockette with space in front, just had no idea Butler would cover that much ground, or didn't see him at all. I don't fault him.. I think he probably throws that ball unless his guy falls down, or there's someone directly in front of him.

What still gets me most about the play, is why didn't they try to sell a run fake???????? Everyone on the field, in the stands, at home, expects a run. If you want to slip in a pass (perfectly reasonable on one of the next two downs), do it after using a hard play action fake... and if that's your thinking, you just leave in the prior play's big personnel, to even better sell the run fake. If it's not there, Wilson throws it out of the end zone, and you get exactly what Carroll alluded to post game.. a clock stoppage and time to regroup for 3rd down. Or better yet, you let Wilson boot away or roll toward the play fake and isolate a Pat DB in that always perfect situation--- force him to either come up on Wilson who's running, or stay on his guy in the end zone. Wilson is the perfect QB in that situation and has proven it many times. If they are set on passing, I have no idea why you neutralize Wilson's greatest strengths?

Or of course, just pound it between the tackles with Lynch.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by itjclarke

I also agree that the call at the end of the half wasn't bad. IMO it was really gutsy and definitely risky, but I've always seen R Wilson as a guy who has incredible situational awareness.

Agreed. Akin to the fake field goal touchdown pass against Green Bay. I was against that one as well, but these things seem to work out for Seattle.

Originally Posted by itjclarke

What still gets me most about the play, is why didn't they try to sell a run fake???????? Everyone on the field, in the stands, at home, expects a run. If you want to slip in a pass (perfectly reasonable on one of the next two downs), do it after using a hard play action fake... and if that's your thinking, you just leave in the prior play's big personnel, to even better sell the run fake. If it's not there, Wilson throws it out of the end zone, and you get exactly what Carroll alluded to post game.. a clock stoppage and time to regroup for 3rd down. Or better yet, you let Wilson boot away or roll toward the play fake and isolate a Pat DB in that always perfect situation--- force him to either come up on Wilson who's running, or stay on his guy in the end zone. Wilson is the perfect QB in that situation and has proven it many times. If they are set on passing, I have no idea why you neutralize Wilson's greatest strengths?

Or of course, just pound it between the tackles with Lynch.

You are right. All I remember thinking when Wilson started in the shotgun was being totally confused and figuring it would be a deep handoff or roll-out, neither of which made sense to me. It was a WTF moment for sure. But I don't feel as bad about the call after stewing for over a day. We have seen fumbles in those sorts of situations as well - were the odds any better of that particular pass being intercepted, than Lynch or Wilson getting stripped of the ball? I don't know. The interception was a horror for Seattle fans, but a fumble would have been just as gut-wrenching.

As an older fan of a team that has been in a lot of big games in my lifetime (Cowboys), I can tell the younger fans that you will go through this many more times in your life. It comes with the games on the opposite end of the spectrum (remember just two weeks ago?). I felt much worse when Lynn Swann made that catch in the Super Bowl against Dallas, or when Jackie Smith dropped the pass from Staubach, or 'the catch' by the blasted 49'ers. I just wish Bart Starr had passed in the 1967 NFC Championship game

[vintagetoppsguy]

You're only saying the play call at the half wasn't bad because it worked out. What if it hadn't worked out? Is it still a good call then?

Just because a play call works out doesn't make it a good call. Likewise, just because a play call doesn't work out make it a bad call.

Edited to add: What if the interception near the end of the game would have been a Seahawks TD instead? Is it still a bad play call then or a good play call? I'm confused how you distinguish between the two???

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by Runscott

As an older fan of a team that has been in a lot of big games in my lifetime (Cowboys), I can tell the younger fans that you will go through this many more times in your life. It comes with the games on the opposite end of the spectrum (remember just two weeks ago?). I felt much worse when Lynn Swann made that catch in the Super Bowl against Dallas, or when Jackie Smith dropped the pass from Staubach, or 'the catch' by the blasted 49'ers. I just wish Bart Starr had passed in the 1967 NFC Championship game

Well, as an older fan this Cowboy memory will make you happy. One of my coaches in HS was the guy (Larry Schreiber) who scored 3 TDs against the Cowboys in the '72 Divisional round game, to put the Niners up 21-6... but Staubach came in late and lead a crazy 4th quarter comeback, including on side kick, to win 30-28. I think that's when the nickname "Captain Comeback" was coined, right?

Re- comments about Seattle fans, I'm not speaking in reference to any of these ridiculous videos, or conspiracy theories (coaches didn't want Marshawn to win MVP?? Please), but my personal experience at games in Seattle has been incredible. I've been to 3 Niner games there, including the NFC Champ game last year. Each time, I wore my red Niner gear, and never once did someone try to instigate a fight. I got a few light hearted heckles, but the kind where we're both smiling while talking trash. One thing about the Seattle fans I've seen, they don't seem to try and escalate the situation, and if you don't wanna take their sh*t they just leave you alone. Niner fans (at Candlestick) on the other hand have been an embarrassment for the last decade or so. I've seen so many people just egg and egg opposing fans until a fight breaks out. I've been to a few of the recent Packer games, and remember watching a group of fans across the parking lot follow a cheese head, knock off his hat, step on it... then knock it off again and again and again. The Packer fan (nicest fans ever) just kept walking away, but those situations often got uglier. So dumb, it's just a football game.