This Cum Posey appears to be a laser copy to me

[mighty bombjack]

This is up in the current Clean Sweep auction (which is pretty loaded if you haven't checked it out). For anyone who has seen any of the few Cum Posey signed diplomas out there, this signature and "Director" line look identical to those. The problem is that those always have names signed on lines directly above and/or below Posey's. An example:



Quite simply, this looks like a re-creation to me, a laser copy of a small piece of one of those original diplomas.

Any thoughts?

[RichardSimon]

You mean to tell me that the card that Posey autograph is "signed" on did not originally have the word director printed on it??
Those cards are very, very common
Nice catch Wayne.

[tazdmb]

I won't get into the pros and cons of Hauls of Shame, but they did post about about this same autograph 3 years ago:

http://haulsofshame.com/blog/?p=12816

[Lordstan]

I wonder if this could real. To my eyes, the paper where Posey is signed, as well as the Director print, appear darker than the rest of the paper. Could the rest of it have been erased, leaving only the Posey? Look at the area starting at the last tip of the "W" arching over the "P" and ending just after the "e". The arch, to my eyes, shows a clear line of demarcation between darker yellow paper below and lighter yellow paper above.

Anyone else see this?

[daves_resale_shop]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

I wonder if this could real. To my eyes, the paper where Posey is signed, as well as the Director print, appear darker than the rest of the paper. Could the rest of it have been erased, leaving only the Posey? Look at the area starting at the last tip of the "W" arching over the "P" and ending just after the "e". The arch, to my eyes, shows a clear line of demarcation between darker yellow paper below and lighter yellow paper above.

Anyone else see this?

I agree with Mark... Looks like someone took a super fine grit sandpaper to the area surrounding the signature...

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by daves_resale_shop

I agree with Mark... Looks like someone took a super fine grit sandpaper to the area surrounding the signature...

I think that is a stretch.
The piece of paper with the alleged signature is old and toned.
Is it possible to erase printing like that on the document with fine grit sandpaper and not leave one shred of printing that was on the document?
I do not know the answer to that but my guess is no.
And considering what we know about the Ty Cobb slab I would think that laser print is more likely then an erasure that is so perfectly done.

[packs]

Never mind misunderstood.

[daves_resale_shop]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

I think that is a stretch.
The piece of paper with the alleged signature is old and toned.
Is it possible to erase printing like that on the document with fine grit sandpaper and not leave one shred of printing that was on the document?
I do not know the answer to that but my guess is no.
And considering what we know about the Ty Cobb slab I would think that laser print is more likely then an erasure that is so perfectly done.

You may be right... It does look to me that the area outside if the signature portion is definitely a lighter shade of cream... I guess it's tough to say either way without examining the piece in hand...

[mighty bombjack]

I hadn't thought of erasure, but it sure seems unlikely that one could leave the paper in that quality. I do see see the odd coloration.

I have looked at all 12 diplomas that sold in Hunt's auction of these things, and none of the signatures match this one. Perhaps this is cut from some other type of document from Homestead High? All I can say it that it looks extremely odd to me.

[mighty bombjack]

Originally Posted by tazdmb

I won't get into the pros and cons of Hauls of Shame, but they did post about about this same autograph 3 years ago:

http://haulsofshame.com/blog/?p=12816

You know, I think I read that post back then. I thought that the piece looked vaguely familiar, but I couldn't place where I had seen it. Thanks for posting this Frank.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by mighty bombjack

I hadn't thought of erasure, but it sure seems unlikely that one could leave the paper in that quality. I do see see the odd coloration.

I have looked at all 12 diplomas that sold in Hunt's auction of these things, and none of the signatures match this one. Perhaps this is cut from some other type of document from Homestead High? All I can say it that it looks extremely odd to me.

Not matching the ones that you have seen is not that important. The fact that these documents are as common as you say is the important thing. It makes it easy for the scammer to do what has apparently been done and it just happened to be one that you have not seen yet.

[prewarsports]

If you look closely you can see where the other ink was sanded away. And yes this can be done. I was just serving as a court appointed expert (fraudulent photographs) a few months ago where a guy was sanding off ALL the ink on the backs of vintage press photos and then adding Conlon, Paul Thompson and Van Oeyen stamps over the blank backs in an attempt top turn Acme and United Press photos into the work of famous photographers. Without holding it in your hand and feeling the roughed up areas it would be impossible to tell from a scan. The person who did that on this Posey was probably not doing it to fake people out, but aesthetically trying to make the item look more like a 3X5 (which some people really get into). Who knows, but 100% this is an authentic signature clipped from one of the Homestead diplomas and then the rest of the ink was sanded away.

Rhys

[RichardSimon]

Rhys - I don't know how you can make the claim that it is 100% authentic without actually having it for an in person inspection.
You do say you need it in hand then you say it is 100%.
If you say it can be done with sandpaper I believe you. But you still need it in hand to determine if it is a laser print or has been sanded.
And someone who is aware enough to send it to PSA would probably know that a document is much more valuable then a simple signature.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by prewarsports

If you look closely you can see where the other ink was sanded away. And yes this can be done. I was just serving as a court appointed expert (fraudulent photographs) a few months ago where a guy was sanding off ALL the ink on the backs of vintage press photos and then adding Conlon, Paul Thompson and Van Oeyen stamps over the blank backs in an attempt top turn Acme and United Press photos into the work of famous photographers. Without holding it in your hand and feeling the roughed up areas it would be impossible to tell from a scan. The person who did that on this Posey was probably not doing it to fake people out, but aesthetically trying to make the item look more like a 3X5 (which some people really get into). Who knows, but 100% this is an authentic signature clipped from one of the Homestead diplomas and then the rest of the ink was sanded away.

Rhys

Can you reveal the name of the person who was doing this to the photos?
Is it someone we know?

[prewarsports]

I should have said "appears to be 100% authentic" as you are correct, if it is a copy. I was referencing the signature appearance (whether its real or not) but of course if it is a copy that is a whole other can of worms. The paper appears to be old and the signature appears to be consistent with other examples so I am sure its real unless of course it a copy of a real one.


Rhys

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by prewarsports

I should have said "appears to be 100% authentic" as you are correct, if it is a copy. I was referencing the signature appearance (whether its real or not) but of course if it is a copy that is a whole other can of worms. The paper appears to be old and the signature appears to be consistent with other examples so I am sure its real unless of course it a copy of a real one.


Rhys

Yes the paper appears old but I don't have to tell you how easy it is to get old paper (ask former dealer Bill Linehan how easy it is. He pleaded guilty after he was caught removing end papers from library books right inside the library). If you are not familiar with his story I found this on the internet.

"CONCORD, N.H. (AP) - An autograph dealer has pleaded guilty to ripping the front and back pages out of 300 Concord Library books. William Linehan, 57, pleaded guilty to criminal mischief Tuesday and agreed to pay a fine of $1,200 and restitution to the library. Linehan says he doesn't know why he did it. "I don't really know. It was just a stupid thing. I think it was the risk which was a kick," he said. "I've never done anything like this before." But police and prosecutors have a different theory. The pages Linehan ripped from the books were blank and authentically aged - perfect canvasses for forged autographs. "Linehan needed paper with a date from a particular era," Assistant City Prosecutor John Draghi argued in Concord District Court. Linehan, a dealer in historic autographs for the past 15 years, denied he used the stolen pages for forgeries. "I can see why they're saying it. All I can do is deny it," he said. He said he has sold 2,000 autographs in the past five years; only 15 were questioned, and he took them all back, no questions asked. However, the Universal Autograph Collectors Club removed him as regional director last summer and then expelled him after a customer made an ethics complaint against him. Bob Erickson, the club president, said Linehan promised another member an autograph of the late rock star Jim Morrison that had been displayed in a catalogue. But the customer complained the autograph he received did not match the one in the catalogue. Linehan did not respond to a letter from the ethics committee concerning its investigation, so he was expelled, Erickson said. "It is very important that when you are a member of this club that you abide by the ethics board's decisions," Erickson said. Linehan claims the customer simply didn't like the condition of the autograph. He also said he was expelled based on his failure to answer the ethics committee, not on the merits of the complaint. Still, Linehan said he will scale back his autograph business and look for another line of work. "Now with more and more people in (autograph collecting), it's getting harder and harder to make a living," he said. "It's much more of a hassle and harder to get material." "

[Klrdds]

Not sure if this makes a difference, but I notice that on the Clean Sweep item the signature line is a series of black dots , and on the diplomas that I could find ( all on Hunt Auctions website ) all the signature lines were a solid black line. If this were a laser copy of a diploma wouldn't the signature line on the Clean Sweep item be an exact copy of the diploma's solid signature line, not a series of dots?

[RichardSimon]

If the item has been sandpapered wouldn't the COA state that?
When they find traced signatures or signs of removal on a signed baseball that is always stated in the COA.
Anybody know Clean Sweep well enough to ask for a copy of the COA?

[Lordstan]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

If the item has been sandpapered wouldn't the COA state that?
When they find traced signatures or signs of removal on a signed baseball that is always stated in the COA.
Anybody know Clean Sweep well enough to ask for a copy of the COA?

I think this is a very valid question. If my thought about the other ink being erased around the sig, it should be able to be identified when you examine it in hand and should be noted.

[prewarsports]

It almost looks like the top of "P" got hit with a bit of the sandpaper as well and possibly touched up too. At the very least there is some wear around that letter as it appears to have extended VERY close to the line on top that was removed.

[RichardSimon]

All we need is the cert. to put this issue to bed.
If it is noted in the cert. then I believe that there is no concern.
If it is not noted in the cert. well then,,,,, ????????
I wrote to Clean Sweep.
I know Verkman and believe he is a good guy, I feel he will answer me promptly.

[daves_resale_shop]

Is it best practice for an authenticators to put every item under a blacklight? I guess it would make sense if there were evidence of tracing, ink added or even very light autos... But on the other hand, I could see this slowing down a process...

Kind of ot: but is there a best practice, or statement if work that tpa's typically try to follow?


Going along with Rhys' theory, my gut says this one has had ink removed for aesthetic purposes...but who knows until you touch it?

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

If the item has been sandpapered wouldn't the COA state that?
When they find traced signatures or signs of removal on a signed baseball that is always stated in the COA.
Anybody know Clean Sweep well enough to ask for a copy of the COA?

[SteveVerkman]

Hi Guys,

Please note this has been looked at by both JSA and PSA. Upon examining this closely with a 10 power loupe, the autograph is not a laser copy, it is signed in fountain pen. The LOA is a JSA auction LOA so it duplicates the description.

As for the other issues, there is some very fine scraping above the signature including a fine line so something may have been erased for aesthetic purposes but we are honestly not completely sure and we do not want to remove this from the slab. We will update the description to reflect this.

Thanks much - Steve Verkman cleansweepauctions.com

[tazdmb]

Steve, I want to personally thank you for addressing this issue and not "sweeping it under the rug", as I know many other auction houses would have done.

[daves_resale_shop]

+1 solid response

Originally Posted by tazdmb

Steve, I want to personally thank you for addressing this issue and not "sweeping it under the rug", as I know many other auction houses would have done.

[mighty bombjack]

Yes, thank you for posting Steve.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by daves_resale_shop

Is it best practice for an authenticators to put every item under a blacklight? I guess it would make sense if there were evidence of tracing, ink added or even very light autos... But on the other hand, I could see this slowing down a process...

Kind of ot: but is there a best practice, or statement if work that tpa's typically try to follow?


Going along with Rhys' theory, my gut says this one has had ink removed for aesthetic purposes...but who knows until you touch it?

I always use a blacklight when examining a signed baseball. If a paper item, for whatever reason, arouses my suspicions then I blacklight that too.

[Klrdds]

Good job addressing this issue straight up Steve. I always enjoy your auctions.

[prewarsports]

Agreed, thanks Steve.

Autograph guys are quirky (aren't all collectors). I know guys who ONLY collect 3X5 cards or ONLY collect items of a particular size so my feeling is that this was done for a particular collectors taste's and is now being passed on with no malicious intent.

[mschwade]

Originally Posted by prewarsports

Agreed, thanks Steve.

Autograph guys are quirky (aren't all collectors). I know guys who ONLY collect 3X5 cards or ONLY collect items of a particular size so my feeling is that this was done for a particular collectors taste's and is now being passed on with no malicious intent.

You calling me quirky Rhys?!

BTW, not sure why nobody replied to this, but I wanted to say terrific observation from Klrdds on the dotted/solid line between the autograph and the diploma.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by prewarsports

Agreed, thanks Steve.

Autograph guys are quirky (aren't all collectors). I know guys who ONLY collect 3X5 cards or ONLY collect items of a particular size so my feeling is that this was done for a particular collectors taste's and is now being passed on with no malicious intent.

I had a customer who turned down a beautiful Babe Ruth on a GPC because it was signed Sincerely. He only collected signatures on 3x5 or GPC and only if it contained a signature only.