Can't fight City Hall- eBay protecting their large sellers (probstein content)

[lancemountain]

Originally Posted by slipk1068

I suspect this may get interesting.

How so? Not sure what last two post mean or allude too.....

[slipk1068]

A couple posts seem to imply that fraud is ok as long as I keep my bids less than market value. No such thing as a true market value if fraud is inherent in the price.

[autocentral]

I try to avoid his auctions as much as possible because of this problem but occasionally I get suckered into bidding. Sometimes it works out without a problem other times you can tell something isn't right. I personally try to set a limit on what I'm willing to pay for a card and not even look at the bidding history if I win the card for lower than my set limit just to avoid any problems. Sure some may say you are still feeding into the fraud of the auction by willing to pay more because someone is shilling but at the end of the day Im happy if I won for lower than my limit.

The ebay seller could really care less about the shilling going on because he profits from it and so does ebay. At the end of the day either bid with caution and a limit or just don't bid on any of his auctions anymore.

-Nick

[christopher.herman]

Originally Posted by slipk1068

No such thing as a true market value if fraud is inherent in the price.

Agreed. I stopped bidding in Probstein auctions years ago. Even if you set a limit and get the item for that amount or less, you still lose money due to shilling and ultimately become part of the problem.

[sports-rings]

I would exhaust every avenue to nail this guy, believe me. It's not the $62, it is the principle and I am willing to stand up to this crook.

The problem is I can't get on the phone with someone to make this threat!

If that's the way you feel do what I do. And I've never lost a single dollar:

I pay with paypal using my American Express card. When I have a problem, I go directly to American express, not paypal or Ebay. Occasionally American express will ask why I don't go to paypal or Ebay and I tell them that the American Express customer service is responsive and it's difficult or impossible to get an Ebay or a paypal rep on the phone.

American express places a hold on the money through Paypal and then Paypal freezes the money or takes the money from the sellers bank account. (Not sure how Paypal is allowed to do this but they do).

You would be surprised how much more helpful and willing to work out a problem the seller becomes when he no longer has your money and needs to resolve this.

American Express has an investigation process and most of the time they claim they don't receive the proper paperwork from the seller and therefore they often close their investigation and reward you a refund. In the event the seller does supply paperwork, American Express still gets you a refund.

Like I said before, I have never lost a case using this method.

[thenextlevel]

You cannot police it. Some auctions that may seem shilled, may actually be legitimate auctions. You can never prove this. Like others have said, just don't bid on his auctions, or if you do, have a firm price that you want to pay(possible using completed auction comparables).

[ALR-bishop]

I go into any auction believing the seller has a price below which he does not want to sell the card, or a price he wants to get for the card. He may do it with a BIN, a reserve, a high opener, or by shilling. While the ethics of those methods obviously vary, I do not see it mattering in the end to me. On ebay, or in a house auction I set a snipe or place a max bid in the amount I am willing to pay, and that 's it. If I lose, I lose. if I win I don't check the bid history unless I later get a 2nd chance offer. I never pay more than what I thought the card was worth to me

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

I go into any auction believing the seller has a price below which he does not want to sell the card, or a price he wants to get for the card. He may do it with a BIN, a reserve, a high opener, or by shilling. While the ethics of those methods obviously vary, I do not see it mattering in the end to me. On ebay, or in a house auction I set a snipe or place a max bid in the amount I am willing to pay, and that 's it. If I lose, I lose. if I win I don't check the bid history unless I later get a 2nd chance offer. I never pay more than what I thought the card was worth to me

I understand your view on this. I used it to buy the only item I ever purchased from Problemstein. That was about 6 months ago and every time I see it I wish I had spent the extra $40 and bought it from someone else.

Blue 58 Topps Hank Aarons are selling at all time highs. I can get you one at a slight discount, any interest?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by thenextlevel

You cannot police it. Some auctions that may seem shilled, may actually be legitimate auctions. You can never prove this. Like others have said, just don't bid on his auctions, or if you do, have a firm price that you want to pay(possible using completed auction comparables).

So if your belief is ‘only bid up to what you’re willing to spend’, then let me ask you this. Let’s say you budget $250 a month for your electric bill and it's consistently under that amount. However, you find out that the meter reader has been misreading it for months, and not in your favor. Does it bother you enough to do something about it, or do you just keep stroking that check every month and tell yourself, "Well, at least it’s under my monthly budget”?

[tschock]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

So if your belief is ‘only bid up to what you’re willing to spend’, then let me ask you this. Let’s say you budget $250 a month for your electric bill and it's consistently under that amount. However, you find out that the meter reader has been misreading it for months, and not in your favor. Does it bother you enough to do something about it, or do you just keep stroking that check every month and tell yourself, "Well, at least it’s under my monthly budget”?

Or how many with the same belief would INSIST on paying market price to someone who KNOWINGLY provides the item at a discount? "Please, take my extra $50 since VCP says you are giving it to me below market price."

Personally I think those that don't have a problem with shilling fall into 2 categories. Those trying to justify that it doesn't matter (the "market price" crowd), and those that don't care (the "don't worry, be happy" crowd).

[VoodooChild]

Please excuse my ignorance on this, but where does current card market price come from and where did it come from before the internet/ebay?

Even though I assume every ebay auction is shilled, it appears to me that the sold listings set the market price. I've won cards from respected auction houses that advertise here and have paid around what they have sold for on ebay. So what am I supposed to do? Where do I buy cards for prices that are not affected by ebay shills? Even cards I buy here on the BST are not that much cheaper than ebay sold listing prices minus the ebay/paypal fee percentages.

[thenextlevel]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

So if your belief is ‘only bid up to what you’re willing to spend’, then let me ask you this. Let’s say you budget $250 a month for your electric bill and it's consistently under that amount. However, you find out that the meter reader has been misreading it for months, and not in your favor. Does it bother you enough to do something about it, or do you just keep stroking that check every month and tell yourself, "Well, at least it’s under my monthly budget”?

Do I have the "option" of paying the electric bill or not, as I have the "option" of paying for a card. I get the example that you are trying to make, but as I stated, don't bid blindly. Once again, I do not condone shillers, but I do buy what I want for my collection, at the price I wish to pay. Whether that be from a shilling seller or not, by following this rule of thumb, I never beat myself up over any purchase.