Black Sox Memorabilia Up For Auction

[RichardSimon]

Holy crap. It is not April 1st yet is it?

[Runscott]

And last but not least. I would love to see pics of the ones in the lot of 57:

Cleveland Naps and New York Giants comprise the most thrilling autograph "find" in years!
1911 The Frank W. Smith Collection Balance of Fifty-Seven Signed Photographs.
The complete collection as it was compiled and then stored and forgotten for over a century comprised sixty signed photographs, and here we present 95% of that original population, every image but the "Shoeless Joe" Jackson, Christy Mathewson and Napoleon Lajoie representations that precede this lot. It's a remarkable time capsule from the heart of the Dead Ball Era, a leatherbound scrapbook that recounts a warm spring in Alexandria, Louisiana, where the Cleveland Naps prepared for the approaching 1911 American League season. The New York Giants images were snapped at the 1911 Chicago Cubs' home park, the West Side Grounds, later that same year.

A few exceptions to the theme lead off the album, images shot and signed both before and after the 1911 season, but the remarkable quality is consistent throughout, with bold autographs and minimal wear to the images themselves. What follows is an inventory of contents, beginning at the front of the album and continuing to the end. Note that some of the men apparently didn't ever make the Major League cut and thus are difficult to identify or simply unknown to even the most educated baseball historian:

Ernest Barnard, William Blackwood (Naps traveling secretary) and Edna Jameson (Naps receptionist), Detroit Tigers image unsigned, Fred Sypher (sporting editor of the Youngtown Telegram) and T.L. Terrell (Naps coach), Deacon McGuire (Naps manager), R.J. Gilks (Naps coach), Joe Birmingham, Sam Kennedy (Naps coach), Doc White (Naps trainer), Fred Blanding, Willie Mitchell, Vean Gregg, Cy Falkenberg, George Kahler, Earl Yingling, Gene Krapp, Spec Harkness, Hi West, [unknown], Ben DeMott, Harry Farrwell, [unknown first name] Kraft, Walt Doan, Jack Adams, Grover Land, Syd Smith, Ted Easterly, Judge Nagle, Jack Graney, Ivy Olson, George Stovall, Dave Callahan, Cotton Knaupp, Herman Bronkie, Art Griggs, Gus Fisher, Eddie Hohnhorst, Spud Hennessey (Giants bat boy), John McGraw (removed and graded PSA NM-MT 8), Chief Meyers, Rube Marquard, George Hartley, Hooks Wiltse (lightly smeared), Doc Crandall, Red Ames, Beals Becker, Larry Doyle and Josh Devore, Louis Drucke, Fred Merkle, Arthur Fletcher, Art Devlin, [unknown], Gene Paulette, Bert Maxwell, Fred Snodgrass, Arlie Latham, Red Murray.

The autographs are applied with either pencil or fountain pen ink, and average 8/10 or better with almost no exception. The Naps images are almost exclusively 8x10" in size, and the Giants 5x8", with all exhibiting minor handling wear and a few light to moderate creasing, but none falling below a technical VG rating. The average is somewhere between EX-MT and NRMT.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Holy crap. It is not April 1st yet is it?

The Lajoe and Mathewson have full PSA letters and the Jackson has both PSA and JSA.

Edited to add: I realize that there is reluctance to discuss any possible bogus material that's in a Heritage auction, because they are big and because they are an advertiser here. It would be refreshing to see members IN ADDITION TO THOSE who have been banned from HA, voice their opinions. I feel that most of the large AH's appreciate a mature discussion regarding questionable items. None of them are immune from criticism - it's all about how they respond to it. At best, our feedback helps them provide better service. At worst, it lets them know we aren't blind and are going to yell if they knowingly auction forgeries. Saying it has a PSA and/or JSA certificate doesn't fly with most of us. It's up to the auction house to do a sanity check on big items BEFORE giving them to PSA or JSA.

[jgmp123]

When is the last time that PSA and JSA authenticated two Joe Jackson signed pieces in this close of a timeframe that originated from different collections...something smells...

[Runscott]

Not knowing these signatures that well, all I can say is that the physical prints don't look like they were printed in 1911.

I could comment on Matty, but we have plenty of actual Mathewson signature experts here.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by Runscott

The Lajoe and Mathewson have full PSA letters and the Jackson has both PSA and JSA.

Edited to add: I realize that there is reluctance to discuss any possible bogus material that's in a Heritage auction, because they are big and because they are an advertiser here. It would be refreshing to see members IN ADDITION TO THOSE who have been banned from HA, voice their opinions. I feel that most of the large AH's appreciate a mature discussion regarding questionable items. None of them are immune from criticism - it's all about how they respond to it. At best, our feedback helps them provide better service. At worst, it lets them know we aren't blind and are going to yell if they knowingly auction forgeries. Saying it has a PSA and/or JSA certificate doesn't fly with most of us. It's up to the auction house to do a sanity check on big items BEFORE giving them to PSA or JSA.

Heritage is stating that these items are in PREVIEW and are for "amusement" purposes. They have done this before and much has been made of it here on 54. Even though they claim they have full letters from the TPA's they as of yet might not have them, based on previous claims of Heritage.
According to their rules, they can remove these items if they feel they are not authentic.
Talk amongst yourselves.

ps. Irony here, I have been banned by Heritage for giving my opinion, and allowing it to be printed, to someone they believe is crooked, (I thought this was America) yet my post is sort of explaining what they are doing with these lots.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Heritage is stating that these items are in PREVIEW and are for "amusement" purposes. They have done this before and much has been made of it here on 54. Even though they claim they have full letters from the TPA's they as of yet might not have them, based on previous claims of Heritage.
According to their rules, they can remove these items if they feel they are not authentic.
Talk amongst yourselves.

ps. Irony here, I have been banned by Heritage yet my post is sort of explaining what they are doing with these lots.

Thanks, Richard. They succeeded with their "amusement". I don't buy any such disclaimer from them; however, if a preview like this leads to discussion which leads to removal, I'm all for it.

To me the most important point regarding these high-dollar items, is that no one who studies Net54 regularly will ever knowingly get burned by any such auction (I chose ALL of my previous words quite carefully ). Prior to laying out the big $$$, we will either know the item is good based on our own research, or we will rely on comments here to help with our decision.

No AH can complain about memorabilia discussions here, as that's why we are here. They have to take the bad with the good, and if they are honest, the good will outweigh the bad. No, they are aiming this stuff at people with lots of money who do not read this forum - people who take the JSA or PSA certificate as meaning that the item is good. We hear people all the time say, when an item's authenticity is questioned: "It has a PSA [or JSA] letter", as if that closes the discussion.

I love having real autographs - I wish more autograph collectors thought it was important.

[Klrdds]

If they are up for preview and for amusement purposes only ....then they have succeeded because the Jackson, Mathewson, and Lajoie are indeed amusing.
I would like to know what basis / references / criteria the TPAs in question are using to determine the authenticity of these items. Is it a reference book or a bank book ?

[Runscott]

Lajoie signed photos and fan items 'Larry'. Even when he did sign 'Nap', that 'N' is highly unusual. I'm guessing this particular forgery was based on this signed item, chosen for its simplicity:

[RelicSports]

Heritage presented these photos on the latest show "A Piece of the Game," and they mentioned that they were in an album that had been sitting in an attic (or basement) in OH for 60 years...so I am sure they fully intend on running these in the upcoming auction

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Bearfan4

Heritage presented these photos on the latest show "A Piece of the Game," and they mentioned that they were in an album that had been sitting in an attic (or basement) in OH for 60 years...so I am sure they fully intend on running these in the upcoming auction

Good poll question: How old would the tree used to create the paper that these were printed on, be if alive today? I'm thinking 'not 60'

[jad22]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Heritage is stating that these items are in PREVIEW and are for "amusement" purposes. They have done this before and much has been made of it here on 54. Even though they claim they have full letters from the TPA's they as of yet might not have them, based on previous claims of Heritage.
According to their rules, they can remove these items if they feel they are not authentic.
Talk amongst yourselves.

ps. Irony here, I have been banned by Heritage for giving my opinion, and allowing it to be printed, to someone they believe is crooked, (I thought this was America) yet my post is sort of explaining what they are doing with these lots.

Banned for giving your opinion?

[shelly]

Richard is loved by all auction houses if he says yes. When you say no goodby

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by jad22

Banned for giving your opinion?

I gave my opinion to Peter Nash about some autographs that he asked my opinion on. He printed my opinion in his newsletter. Heritage then banned me, claiming that I work for someone who is crooked.
I do not work for Nash and he just asked my opinion on some autographs for a story he was doing.

[jad22]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

I gave my opinion to Peter Nash about some autographs that he asked my opinion on. He printed my opinion in his newsletter. Heritage then banned me, claiming that I work for someone who is crooked.
I do not work for Nash and he just asked my opinion on some autographs for a story he was doing.

That's absurd. Your offering your opinion about someone else's opinion. I would think that's okay.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by jad22

That's absurd. Your offering your opinion about someone else's opinion. I would think that's okay.

Yeah but Heritage did not think so.
No problem, the sum total of my bids with them was and is zero.