O/T Life or Death, One Game, My Starting 9

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by ElCabron

Have you watched baseball at all in the past 80 years? All 4 of those guys are amazing in the postseason. Bumgarner just had the best postseason of any pitcher in the history of baseball. And I hate the guy. But things are the way the are.



-Ryan

One great postseason makes a player elite and worth starting over all of the all time greats? Laughable. Bumgarner is a really good pitcher, but let's not get carried away.


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[pgellis]

LF: Rickey Henderson
CF: Ty Cobb
3B: George Brett
DH: David Ortiz
1B: Lou Gehrig
RF: Reggie Jackson
C: Johnny Bench
2B: Joe Morgan
SS: Ozzie Smith

SP: Bob Gibson
RP: Mariano Rivera


Tough to leave Ruth off the list, but Reggie & Ortiz were so clutch. I think the toughest positions are C, 2B, & SS.

[glynparson]

1b- Lou Gehrig
2b- Joe Morgan
3b- Mike Schmidt
ss- Honus Wagner
rf- Babe Ruth
CF- Willie MAys
Lf- Barry Bonds
c- Roy Campanella
SP- Sandy Koufax
RP- Mariano Rivera
DH- Ted Williams

Lineup
1.Honus Wagner
2.Ted Williams
3.Babe Ruth
4.Barry Bonds
5.Lou Gehrig
6.Willie Mays
7.Mike Schmidt
8.Roy Campanella
9.Joe Morgan

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by freakhappy

One great postseason makes a player elite and worth starting over all of the all time greats? Laughable. Bumgarner is a really good pitcher, but let's not get carried away.


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+1

[rats60]

Originally Posted by freakhappy

One great postseason makes a player elite and worth starting over all of the all time greats? Laughable. Bumgarner is a really good pitcher, but let's not get carried away.


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You take Bum if we are talking current players, but all time he's not in the discussion. Koufax, two shutouts on 2 days rest. Gibson 7 world series wins in a row or Mathewson 3 shutouts in 5 games are easy picks over him in my opinion.

[z28jd]

I think it's interesting how people are picking old pitchers and also throwing a reliever in there as if you're going to take out Walter Johnson, Sandy Koufax or Christy Mathewson for anyone else with your life on the line.

The other interesting part, why pick a reliever, what if the game goes extra innings, or what if your starter doesn't have it at all? I picked Johnson and Mathewson. I would never take a reliever, not even Roy Face, who went 3+ innings numerous times. That seems like an awful risky thing to do in this situation.

As for the all Yankees lineup, how about an all Pirates lineup. You have the two best shortstop of all-time, so that hurts a little, but you could still put out:

CF Carey
SS Wagner
RF Clemente
1B Stargell
DH Kiner
LF P.Waner
3B Traynor
2B Mazeroski
C Sanguillen(or Al Lopez if you want all HOF)
Bench: Vaughan, Cuyler, L.Waner, Beckley
P Pud Galvin

[Runscott]

If this is a thread based entirely on post-season stats, then someone should just do some googling and give us 'THE ANSWER'.

If not, then I'm very happy with my roster and while some of the incredible all-star rosters I'm seeing don't impress me (I'm certain my team could whoop your team), I'll just raise my eyebrows a little and move on.

[Big Ben]

Batting order for my lineup

Jeter
Mays
Ted Williams
Mantle
Ruth (DH)
Brett
Gehrig
Berra
Jackie Robinson

SP Koufax
Relief pitcher Bob Gibson
Closer Mariano Rivera.

[Mountaineer1999]

I am of the opinion that one could take 9 of the best players today and you would win more than you would lose against any other team put together.

Molina
Cabrera
Cano
Tulo
Beltre
Stanton
Trout
McCutchen
Kershaw

[Runscott]

Donnie, you might be right about that. When I was trying to pick a second-baseman, I wanted to go with Jackie Robinson, but I of course have never seen him play, and I wasn't sure what his postseason performance was. I chose my team based soley on my own gut feel about the players, with one exception: I wanted to put Scott Rolen at 3B because I remember being scared to death when Houston had to face him in the playoffs; however, I also remembered some choking. So I looked up his stats and dropped him in favor of Brooks Robinson, who I remembered making some jaw-dropping plays during the World Series. I chose Williams because of his performance in the last game of his .406 year. Not sure why I chose DiMaggio - just gut feel.

But you remind me that I forgot Cano, which amazes me, given that I collect Cano memorabilia and I don't particularly like Joe Morgan. My only problem with Cano is that he doesn't hustle, and in a life-or-death game, you need hustle - no one could accuse Morgan of laziness. Same for Jackie Robinson.

Eric - computer simulation would not work. What makes this thread concept so fantastic (to me, anyway) is that so much of the choice-making is based on intangibles. Overall Post-season stats might be terrible for a player, but during the most critical moments they might be incredibly good. Curt Schilling had a terrible first game in the World Series, but he was lights-out on a bloody foot when he absolutely had to be.

Great, great topic.

Edited to add: another player that Phil would wrist-slap me for adding is Dave Henderson. But anyone watching playoff games in the mid-80's will remember that, despite his mediocre playoff stats, he did some stuff. His jumps at the left-field wall were sensational as well.

[Lgarza99]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Donnie, you might be right about that. When I was trying to pick a second-baseman, I wanted to go with Jackie Robinson, but I of course have never seen him play, and I wasn't sure what his postseason performance was. I chose my team based soley on my own gut feel about the players, with one exception: I wanted to put Scott Rolen at 3B because I remember being scared to death when Houston had to face him in the playoffs; however, I also remembered some choking. So I looked up his stats and dropped him in favor of Brooks Robinson, who I remembered making some jaw-dropping plays during the World Series. I chose Williams because of his performance in the last game of his .406 year. Not sure why I chose DiMaggio - just gut feel.

But you remind me that I forgot Cano, which amazes me, given that I collect Cano memorabilia and I don't particularly like Joe Morgan. My only problem with Cano is that he doesn't hustle, and in a life-or-death game, you need hustle - no one could accuse Morgan of laziness. Same for Jackie Robinson.

Eric - computer simulation would not work. What makes this thread concept so fantastic (to me, anyway) is that so much of the choice-making is based on intangibles. Overall Post-season stats might be terrible for a player, but during the most critical moments they might be incredibly good. Curt Schilling had a terrible first game in the World Series, but he was lights-out on a bloody foot when he absolutely had to be.

Great, great topic.

Edited to add: another player that Phil would wrist-slap me for adding is Dave Henderson. But anyone watching playoff games in the mid-80's will remember that, despite his mediocre playoff stats, he did some stuff. His jumps at the left-field wall were sensational as well.

Scott, I'm with you. I totally went with gut feeling. And as I read some of these teams I do another gut check. B. Robinson, J. Robinson, heck even F. Robinson, Schilling when all the marbles are on the table, and I can't forget Kirby Puckett. Pete Rose too. He may have made my team before I knew about his betting? I do feel like he wants to win every game he competes in, but???

[chaddurbin]

where is the game being played? indoor/outdoor, grass/astroturf, petco park/coors field? mars....? depending on location/season i will craft a sabrmetric lineup that will embarass the all-time greats! long live david eckstein!!!

[nolemmings]

I know how everyone was crowing about Bumgarner last year, but it was not the best post-season ever by a pitcher.

Agreed. Koufax in '65 against my beloved Twins was better. 2 complete game shutouts, the second on the same short rest as Madison, 29 Ks in 24 innings back when hitters were ashamed to strike out, and one earned run in those 24 innings. Might have won game 2 also, had Alston PH someone other than Don Drysdale for him in the 7th with men on 2nd and 3rd and one out, although the BP got blown up thereafter.

These things are fun and of course debatable, but I really don't see how you can leave out Mantle. The guy was always clutch, even or especially on the biggest stages. Great against the ordinary and the extraordinary. I'd also be hard-pressed to leave out Reggie, who seemed to adore and thrive in pressure.

[z28jd]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer1999

I am of the opinion that one could take 9 of the best players today and you would win more than you would lose against any other team put together.

Molina
Cabrera
Cano
Tulo
Beltre
Stanton
Trout
McCutchen
Kershaw

It's possible due to training that they would, but if we are somehow assuming a player like Wagner could be in the same game as Mike Schmidt, then what are the condition the games are being played under? There isn't a major leaguer playing right now that could survive a week if they were thrust into a 19th century game facing Old Hoss Radbourn from 50 feet away and they're not wearing a batting helmet. A week in 19th century conditions and they would quit. I'm sure a 19th century player would have to adjust too, but he's adjusting the opposite way. He could get lazy with all the amenities.

[mark evans]

Originally Posted by Mountaineer1999

I am of the opinion that one could take 9 of the best players today and you would win more than you would lose against any other team put together.

Molina
Cabrera
Cano
Tulo
Beltre
Stanton
Trout
McCutchen
Kershaw

I think this is largely correct. As a rule, it seems to me that players are bigger, stronger, more athletic, better trained, start younger, and have to excel against better competition to make the majors than heroes of the past.

[ElCabron]

Originally Posted by freakhappy

One great postseason makes a player elite and worth starting over all of the all time greats? Laughable. Bumgarner is a really good pitcher, but let's not get carried away.

Um, one postseason? Madison Bumgarner has 3 rings. That's as many as Koufax. That's as many as Bob Gibson and Walter Johnson combined. Oh, and he's 25 years old. What's laughable is the willful ignorance displayed by so many that automatically think older is better. The theoretical question posed here was about who would be best in one game, LIFE OR DEATH, meaning the highest possible pressure situation. The closest comparison as far as baseball stats would be when the pressure is highest, namely, the postseason. More specifically, the World Series.

So, tell me this, without cheating and looking below, which postseason stats are better:

A) 4-0, 0.25 ERA, 0.528 WHIP, 31 K, 36 IP, 1 shutout.
B) 7-3, 2.14 ERA, 0.883 WHIP, 77 K, 88.1 IP, 2 shutouts.
C) 3-3, 2.52 ERA, 1.420 WHIP, 35 K, 50 IP, 1 shutout.
D) 4-3, 0.95 ERA, 0.825 WHIP, 61 K, 57 IP, 2 shutouts.
E) 7-2, 1.89 ERA, 0.889 WHIP, 92 K, 81 IP, 2 shutouts.
F) 3-0, 0.87 ERA, 0.935 WHIP, 8 K, 31 IP, 1 shutout.

Perhaps that will help give you some objectivity. There are still other factors that should be considered, such as the 60s being an incredibly pitcher-friendly era, and the modern game's dearth of complete games, and therefore shutouts.

So would you like to know who is who? Here ya go:

A) Madison Bumgarner - career World Series
B) Madison Bumgarner - career postseason total
C) Walter Johnson - career postseason (all World Series)
D) Sandy Koufax - career postseason (all World Series)
E) Bob Gibson - career postseason (all World Series)
F) Babe Ruth - career postseason (all World Series)

And for the record, I chose 5 pitchers and said I'd be fine with any of them. Bumgarner was one, and still is. And like I said before, I HATE HIM! I also chose Mathewson, but it's very difficult to compare pitching stats from the deadball era.

-Ryan

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by ElCabron

Um, one postseason? Madison Bumgarner has 3 rings. That's as many as Koufax. That's as many as Bob Gibson and Walter Johnson combined. Oh, and he's 25 years old. What's laughable is the willful ignorance displayed by so many that automatically think older is better. The theoretical question posed here was about who would be best in one game, LIFE OR DEATH, meaning the highest possible pressure situation. The closest comparison as far as baseball stats would be when the pressure is highest, namely, the postseason. More specifically, the World Series.



So, tell me this, without cheating and looking below, which postseason stats are better:



A) 4-0, 0.25 ERA, 0.528 WHIP, 31 K, 36 IP, 1 shutout.

B) 7-3, 2.14 ERA, 0.883 WHIP, 77 K, 88.1 IP, 2 shutouts.

C) 3-3, 2.52 ERA, 1.420 WHIP, 35 K, 50 IP, 1 shutout.

D) 4-3, 0.95 ERA, 0.825 WHIP, 61 K, 57 IP, 2 shutouts.

E) 7-2, 1.89 ERA, 0.889 WHIP, 92 K, 81 IP, 2 shutouts.

F) 3-0, 0.87 ERA, 0.935 WHIP, 8 K, 31 IP, 1 shutout.



Perhaps that will help give you some objectivity. There are still other factors that should be considered, such as the 60s being an incredibly pitcher-friendly era, and the modern game's dearth of complete games, and therefore shutouts.



So would you like to know who is who? Here ya go:



A) Madison Bumgarner - career World Series

B) Madison Bumgarner - career postseason total

C) Walter Johnson - career postseason (all World Series)

D) Sandy Koufax - career postseason (all World Series)

E) Bob Gibson - career postseason (all World Series)

F) Babe Ruth - career postseason (all World Series)



And for the record, I chose 5 pitchers and said I'd be fine with any of them. Bumgarner was one, and still is. And like I said before, I HATE HIM! I also chose Mathewson, but it's very difficult to compare pitching stats from the deadball era.



-Ryan

Easy bub...you act like it matters. I know the World Series is the biggest stage, but there are usually five or so pitchers better than bumgarner every year....but this coming year he may be top three. I get he just had an amazing playoff run this past year, but it was in fact, this year's run that put him on your list. So those scoring at home, it's....

Ryan 1
Mike 1




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[ElCabron]

Did you just really call me Bub? Anyway, I wouldn't put Bumgarner in the top 5 last year or this year. He's a good pitcher, but not close to Kershaw. And there are several others that are also currently better than him. But he becomes someone else when it matters the most, and that's what we're talking about.

-Ryan

[Runscott]

At least no one picked Kershaw for their 'one game only' team. That would certainly be lunacy, given his meltdown in critical post-season games.

I agree with Ryan that the only do-able way to quantify 'one game only' performance is through post-season stats, but if you had the time (the 'Stache being the only person here who has that kind of time) I suppose you could go through a list of candidates' careers, picking out critical games only;e.g-I wouldn't count game 4 of the World Series if your team is up 3-0, but I would count critical games at the end of the season when you are in a pennant race.

In the end, gut feel seems to be as good a method as any. Personally, I find the wide variety of 'gut feels' on our forum to be very interesting, especially among those of us who have followed baseball players during the same periods. It's also interesting to see all the names on people's lists that represent completely non-quantifiable players, given that they played during periods where we don't have enough stats to make such judgements. But even in those instances, 'gut feel' based on what they've read about such players, is as valid as any method for choosing.

[Lgarza99]

Originally Posted by ElCabron

Did you just really call me Bub? Anyway, I wouldn't put Bumgarner in the top 5 last year or this year. He's a good pitcher, but not close to Kershaw. And there are several others that are also currently better than him. But he becomes someone else when it matters the most, and that's what we're talking about.

-Ryan

That's what we are talking about. Like Kershaw being the top starter in this day and age. But, he wouldn't sniff the ball park in a life and death game for me!

[Orioles1954]

Compare Brooks Robinson's postseason stats to Mike Schmidt and the player who I would want manning the hot corner becomes very, very evident.

[packs]

LF - Rickey Henderson
SS - Honus Wagner
RF - Babe Ruth
1B - Lou Gehrig
CF - Ken Griffey Jr.
DH - Ted Williams
2B - Rogers Hornsby
3B - George Brett
C - Yogi Berra

SP - Walter Johnson

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

Compare Brooks Robinson's postseason stats to Mike Schmidt and the player who I would want manning the hot corner becomes very, very evident.

Brett OPS 1.023 .337 .397 .627
Brooks OPS .785 .303 .323 .462
Schmidt OPS .690 .236 .304 .386

It's clear to me who I want manning the hot corner, George Brett.

[freakhappy]

Originally Posted by ElCabron

Did you just really call me Bub? Anyway, I wouldn't put Bumgarner in the top 5 last year or this year. He's a good pitcher, but not close to Kershaw. And there are several others that are also currently better than him. But he becomes someone else when it matters the most, and that's what we're talking about.



-Ryan

I was having some fun glad you didn't take offense to it.

Anyway, it might sound ridiculous, but kershaw is better than bum and I'd still take him in one game. I think he will prove it to us in the near future. That being said...bum has been great in the playoffs and I get why anyone would want him.


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[Lgarza99]

I still couldn't go with Kershaw because the future is now. There is no future if Kershaw is taking the mound.

[btcarfagno]

I don't really get the idea of using the playoff stats as what I will base my life on. I mean....if small sample sizes are what I am going to base it on why not go with Mark Whiten on the day he hit four homers? Ed Delahanty the day he hit four? Len Barker the day of his perfect game?

I wouldn't base my life on the outcome of small sample sizes. My "team" has so much hitting and pitching that it will more than make up for any "lack of clutchness" or whatever those using playoff stats are trying to say.

Tom C