HOF Future Eligibles

[packs]

It blows my mind that there could possibly be people who don't view Mariano Rivera as a HOFer, let alone one of the greatest pitchers of all time.

Arguments over him being a failed starter don't hold water to me. He wasn't a failed starter. He found his role and dominated in it. Your starter can pitch a great game. But until you finish the game, it's not a win. So unless your position is that starters should have to pitch 9 innings every time they pitch, your argument that relief pitchers aren't important doesn't make a lot of sense.

You don't win until the 9th inning is over. Mariano owned that 9th inning. And in the post-season you were more or less doomed: 8 - 1 with an 0.70 ERA and 42 saves.

That's 50 post-season wins for your team when you had Rivera in the pen. That cannot be denied or diminished. Not to mention that before he even pitched the baseball, you already knew what he was going to throw. And you still couldn't hit it. He was exceptional and extraordinary, everything a HOFer should be.

[jbhofmann]

Adderall is not a substance that will turn deep flys into HRs but it is a banned performance enhancing drug.

Greenies cannot be simply dismissed just because the league didn't recognize the benefits of taking them.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Eventually it will come to light that someone (or more) already in the HOF used PED's during the 1986-2006 era. What happens then?

That's why the more I think about it, the era should just be documented as the steroids era and we should go on with our HOF selections as normal based on stats taken in context of their own era, etc. Those with the best numbers will get in and life will go on........

Jose Canseco, source of much of the known info, has indicated that up to 75% of Major Leaguers were users at some point. He has been right on just about everything that he has told so far, so why doubt him now.......

If Canseco is correct, how can you really differentiate who did and did not?

[darwinbulldog]

I think there's at least as much reason to suspect Rickey Henderson as to suspect Bagwell or Piazza.

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

Eventually it will come to light that someone (or more) already in the HOF used PED's during the 1986-2006 era. What happens then?

That's why the more I think about it, the era should just be documented as the steroids era and we should go on with our HOF selections as normal based on stats, etc. Those with the best numbers will get in and life will go on........

[bcbgcbrcb]

Wasn't it obvious enough to MLB when Luis Gonzalez hit 57 home runs in the early 2000's.........

[bcbgcbrcb]

Well, Glenn, Henderson played on the same Oakland teams with McGwire, Canseco, etc. so..........

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

I think there's at least as much reason to suspect Rickey Henderson as to suspect Bagwell or Piazza.

Suspect Rickey LOL Rickey looked like he was juicing so hard at the end of his career that it was amazing he was not walking around with a needle sticking out his butt cheek.

To those comparing greenies to coffee, WOW. Ok to be fair 1 greenie would be like coffee if you could down 50 gallons of it in 5 minutes.

My all-time favorite player is Wade Boggs. He was never caught cheating(in baseball) but like your favorite player I can guarantee he did. Whether it was greenies, steroids, corked bat or something else they cheated. The poster boy of baseball Mickey Mantle did do greenies, had a corked bat, and was rumored to do steroids. Yes steroids were in sports during his time and the 50 years before his time. I am not saying Mantle did steroids because it was way before my time, just that it was rumored he and Maris both juiced.

Also David Ortiz should never be allowed in the HOF unless it is to visit with friends.

Right or wrong these are my opinions and till proven wrong I stand by them.

[glchen]

I don't think that greenies matter that much. I'm in the camp that it's more like coffee. Look for modern steroids, people have a lot of stats like for Bonds, pre-steroids, he hit X many home runs per year, and post (suspected) steroid use, his HR production went way up.

For any of the suspected greenie users, are there any stats out there that show that before the player used greenies, his stats were ordinary and that after he started using greenies, BOOM, he had HOF numbers? I don't know if anyone has ever shown this.

[packs]

There is a huge difference between greenies and steroids in my opinion. Unless I'm mistaken, greenies don't alter your body in the sense that a 165 pound player (like Pudge was when he came up) will morph into a 200 plus pound player in a season or two (like Pudge did) from taking greenies.

Greenies and steroids are both I guess PEDs, but they are in totally different leagues. You can't pop a greenie and go from hitting 40 homers to 70 homers. You can do that with steroids. I would argue that a greenie enables a player to play to their standard of play. Steroids enables a player to play above and beyond their standard of play. That's a big difference to me.

[sycks22]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Suspect Rickey LOL Rickey looked like he was juicing so hard at the end of his career that it was amazing he was not walking around with a needle sticking out his butt cheek.

To those comparing greenies to coffee, WOW. Ok to be fair 1 greenie would be like coffee if you could down 50 gallons of it in 5 minutes.

My all-time favorite player is Wade Boggs. He was never caught cheating(in baseball) but like your favorite player I can guarantee he did. Whether it was greenies, steroids, corked bat or something else they cheated. The poster boy of baseball Mickey Mantle did do greenies, had a corked bat, and was rumored to do steroids. Yes steroids were in sports during his time and the 50 years before his time. I am not saying Mantle did steroids because it was way before my time, just that it was rumored he and Maris both juiced.

Also David Ortiz should never be allowed in the HOF unless it is to visit with friends.

Right or wrong these are my opinions and till proven wrong I stand by them.

Guarantee Boggs cheated? He looked more like a beer vendor than a ball player. Did the 'roids or whatever you possibly claim he took help him flare thousands of balls to left field? He wasn't fast, didn't have much power and had an average arm. Which part of his game was aided by juicing? Just because someone is good doesn't mean they cheated.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by sycks22

Guarantee Boggs cheated? He looked more like a beer vendor than a ball player. Did the 'roids or whatever you possibly claim he took help him flare thousands of balls to left field? He wasn't fast, didn't have much power and had an average arm. Which part of his game was aided by juicing? Just because someone is good doesn't mean they cheated.

I never said Boggs did steroids, I said cheated.

Since most are way smarter than me in this area and was not stupid enough to try them I will describe how they really work. Your level of steroid use is what makes the difference. Its like Barry Bonds and his few insane years and Roger Clemens and his amazing long career.

Heavy users: These guys but up insane #s but only for a few years because your body just cant handle it. Look at Giambi, Bonds, and McGwire and how after they had the big steroid years they had crazy injuries.

Moderate users: These were the guys that put up really good #'s for a longer time before the injuries hit them.

Light/occasional user: These are the smart guys. Because they never had huge years but had long productive careers. This is the 75% of baseball players Canseco was talking about. They used them to stay healthy. IMHO at this level of use they received the same benefits as the guys using Greenies.

[triwak]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

That's why the more I think about it, the era should just be documented as the steroids era and we should go on with our HOF selections as normal based on stats taken in context of their own era, etc. Those with the best numbers will get in and life will go on........

100% agree!

[btcarfagno]

Originally Posted by packs

It blows my mind that there could possibly be people who don't view Mariano Rivera as a HOFer, let alone one of the greatest pitchers of all time.

Arguments over him being a failed starter don't hold water to me. He wasn't a failed starter. He found his role and dominated in it. Your starter can pitch a great game. But until you finish the game, it's not a win. So unless your position is that starters should have to pitch 9 innings every time they pitch, your argument that relief pitchers aren't important doesn't make a lot of sense.

You don't win until the 9th inning is over. Mariano owned that 9th inning. And in the post-season you were more or less doomed: 8 - 1 with an 0.70 ERA and 42 saves.

That's 50 post-season wins for your team when you had Rivera in the pen. That cannot be denied or diminished. Not to mention that before he even pitched the baseball, you already knew what he was going to throw. And you still couldn't hit it. He was exceptional and extraordinary, everything a HOFer should be.

Rivera pitched about 1 inning per game in 40% of the games the Yankees played in. 70 or so innings per year. I simply cannot see anyone who played less than 5% of the innings that his team played during the season as being a Hall Of Famer. No matter how much he dominated in those 5% of team innings. Now....he was easily the best ever for what he was. No one even close really. To me, the best of a flawed bunch who played so few innings is simply not Hall Of Fame worthy.

And yes, he was a flawed starter. He was a two pitch pitcher when he came up. He got lit up as a starter where he got exposed the second time through the lineup. He was put into the bullpen where his limited arsenal would get better results. Then he perfected the cutter and that pitch was so good that until the last few years of his career he was a one pitch pitcher. He would never get away with that as a starter.

I certainly respect the opinions of those who believe he should be there, and he likely will be a first ballot inductee. I simply do not value the position of relief pitcher much.

Tom C