All right guys, we all know baseball..Who's the best in your mind?

[clydepepper]

For position players I've seen play, I'd go with Clemente, Griffey, Jr., and Bench.

For pitchers, Koufax (didn't see him much, but that was enough), Pedro, Seaver, and Maddux.

I would include Bonds and Clemens, but no one knows exactly when the juicing started...so I have to leave them off.

Best in his lifetime : Babe Ruth

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

For position players I've seen play, I'd go with Clemente, Griffey, Jr., and Bench.

For pitchers, Koufax (didn't see him much, but that was enough), Pedro, Seaver, and Maddux.

I would include Bonds and Clemens, but no one knows exactly when the juicing started...so I have to leave them off.

Best in his lifetime : Babe Ruth

The sad thing about Bonds is that he never had to juice. He wouldn't have broken Hank Aaron's home run record, or McGwire's, but he'd have been a first ballot Hall of Famer, anyway. He ruined his legacy.

By the end of his age 30 season, which is before Bonds would have started taking PED more than likely, he had 999 runs, 1,436 hits, 306 doubles, 48 triples, 292 home runs, 864 RBI, 340 stolen bases and a .938 OPS. He'd won 3 MVPs, 5 Gold Gloves, and 5 Silver Slugger Awards. I mean, to be at 300 HR and 300 SB, at age 31...all he had to do was stay healthy, and he was clearly on his way.

The next three years, he hit .300 with 119 HR, 352 RBI, and 105 SB. He had a 1.051 OPS in those three years. He won 3 more Gold Gloves and 2 more Silver Sluggers. At that point, I don't know if he's using, but he's a Hall of Famer right then.

At the end of the 1998 season, 33 years old, his career numbers:

.290 AVG, 1,364 R, 1,917 H, 403 doubles, 411 HR, 1,216 RBI, 445 SB, .966 OPS. 3 MVP. 8 Gold Gloves. 7 Silver Sluggers.

1999 was the year, I think, that moved him to use. He still hit 34 home runs, but he only hit .262, and only played in 102 games. The next two years, of course, he hit 49 then 73 home runs. The rest was history.

It's too bad.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

The sad thing about Bonds is that he never had to juice. He wouldn't have broken Hank Aaron's home run record, or McGwire's, but he'd have been a first ballot Hall of Famer, anyway. He ruined his legacy.

By the end of his age 30 season, which is before Bonds would have started taking PED more than likely, he had 999 runs, 1,436 hits, 306 doubles, 48 triples, 292 home runs, 864 RBI, 340 stolen bases and a .938 OPS. He'd won 3 MVPs, 5 Gold Gloves, and 5 Silver Slugger Awards. I mean, to be at 300 HR and 300 SB, at age 31...all he had to do was stay healthy, and he was clearly on his way.

The next three years, he hit .300 with 119 HR, 352 RBI, and 105 SB. He had a 1.051 OPS in those three years. He won 3 more Gold Gloves and 2 more Silver Sluggers. At that point, I don't know if he's using, but he's a Hall of Famer right then.

At the end of the 1998 season, 33 years old, his career numbers:

.290 AVG, 1,364 R, 1,917 H, 403 doubles, 411 HR, 1,216 RBI, 445 SB, .966 OPS. 3 MVP. 8 Gold Gloves. 7 Silver Sluggers.

1999 was the year, I think, that moved him to use. He still hit 34 home runs, but he only hit .262, and only played in 102 games. The next two years, of course, he hit 49 then 73 home runs. The rest was history.

It's too bad.

Bonds most likely started juicing in 1993. Most of his legacy is buit on cheating, in my opinion. The guy who played for the Pirates was nothing like the guy who played for the Giants, a team with known PED users. The idea that PEDS started in 1998 with McGwire and Sosa breaking Maris' record is naive. I believe it was out of control by 1991 when Vincent want to crack down on steroids.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by rats60

Bonds most likely started juicing in 1993. Most of his legacy is buit on cheating, in my opinion. The guy who played for the Pirates was nothing like the guy who played for the Giants, a team with known PED users. The idea that PEDS started in 1998 with McGwire and Sosa breaking Maris' record is naive. I believe it was out of control by 1991 when Vincent want to crack down on steroids.

I think it started even earlier...1986...when Canseco first appeared.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by rats60

Bonds most likely started juicing in 1993. Most of his legacy is buit on cheating, in my opinion. The guy who played for the Pirates was nothing like the guy who played for the Giants, a team with known PED users. The idea that PEDS started in 1998 with McGwire and Sosa breaking Maris' record is naive. I believe it was out of control by 1991 when Vincent want to crack down on steroids.

I am not a fan of Barry Bonds. But I hate it when statements are presented as factual, when they are anything but.

While a member of the Pittsburgh Pirates, Bonds hit 176 home runs, and stole 251 bases. His last three years in Pittsburgh, Bonds was the National League MVP twice, and the MVP runner up once.



Here are two sets of numbers: first, his career numbers as a member of the Pirates, up to and including 1992, the year before you hypothesize that Bonds started using PEDs. The second set of numbers are the totals for Bonds last three years as a Pirate. Look at them. Bonds was a .301 hitter. His per 162 game averages those last three years: 113 runs scored, 165 hits, 36 doubles, 5 triples, 34 home runs, 122 RBI, 49 stolen bases, 120 walks. His slash line was .424/.566/.990.

He won three Gold Gloves those last three seasons. He won three Silver Slugger Awards, too.

My point? Barry Bonds was already a superstar before he ever put on a San Francisco Giants uniform. Had he never used a PED, Bonds, short of suffering a career-ending injury, was on his way to the Hall of Fame. He was the best player in the National League when the Giants got him. He played 140 games the season before, led the NL with 109 runs scored. Led the NL with 127 walks. Led the NL with a .456 OBP. Led the NL with a .624 SLG. Led the NL with a 1.080 OPS. Led the NL with a ridiculous 204 OPS +.

Let me repeat that. His last season in Pittsburgh, his OPS + was 204. That's higher than any single season in Ken Griffey Jr's career. Hall of Famer Frank Thomas only had one season with a higher OPS + (212 in 1994). Hall of Famer Willie McCovey only had one season higher (209 in 1969). That's higher than any season Hall of Famer Willie Mays ever had in a single season. That's higher than any season Hall of Famer Hank Aaron ever had in one season. That's higher than any season Hall of Famer Joe DiMaggio ever had in any one season.

To say that the Barry Bonds who played for the Pirates is nothing like the Barry Bonds that played for the Giants is a completely inaccurate statement.

He was 28 years old his first season in San Francisco. I believe that regardless of PED use or not, Bonds was on his way to becoming a 40-40 player. If you look at his numbers, he was decreasing his strikeouts, and walking more...substantially more, his last three years as a Pirate. His annual walk totals raised from 93 to 107 to 127. His strikeout totals dropped from 83 to 73 and 69 his last year (though he did come to bat 37 fewer times in his last year). His 34 home runs in 1992 was a career high, and he still stole 39 bases. He'd go on to win 5 more Gold Gloves in San Francisco.

Even if Bonds hadn't used PEDs, and his home run totals remained in the mid 30s per season, he was still going to be a member of the 500 home run club. His RBI totals would have ended up about where they are. Even when he hit 73 home runs in 2001, he only drove in 137 runs. He's still driving in 110 + runs a year hitting 30-35 home runs.

Bonds didn't need to use PEDs to become a great player, nor did he need PEDs to become a Hall of Fame player. Perhaps he used them to prolong his career. Maybe he had physical issues that we do not know about. Whatever the case, and whatever his motivation may have been, Barry Bonds would still have been considered one of the greatest players to ever play the game without PEDs, and rightfully so.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

I am not a fan of Barry Bonds. But I hate it when statements are presented as factual, when they are anything but.

While a member of the Pittsburgh Pirates, Bonds hit 176 home runs, and stole 251 bases. His last three years in Pittsburgh, Bonds was the National League MVP twice, and the MVP runner up once.



Here are two sets of numbers: first, his career numbers as a member of the Pirates, up to and including 1992, the year before you hypothesize that Bonds started using PEDs. The second set of numbers are the totals for Bonds last three years as a Pirate. Look at them. Bonds was a .301 hitter. His per 162 game averages those last three years: 113 runs scored, 165 hits, 36 doubles, 5 triples, 34 home runs, 122 RBI, 49 stolen bases, 120 walks. His slash line was .424/.566/.990.

He won three Gold Gloves those last three seasons. He won three Silver Slugger Awards, too.

My point? Barry Bonds was already a superstar before he ever put on a San Francisco Giants uniform. Had he never used a PED, Bonds, short of suffering a career-ending injury, was on his way to the Hall of Fame. He was the best player in the National League when the Giants got him. He played 140 games the season before, led the NL with 109 runs scored. Led the NL with 127 walks. Led the NL with a .456 OBP. Led the NL with a .624 SLG. Led the NL with a 1.080 OPS. Led the NL with a ridiculous 204 OPS +.

Let me repeat that. His last season in Pittsburgh, his OPS + was 204. That's higher than any single season in Ken Griffey Jr's career. Hall of Famer Frank Thomas only had one season with a higher OPS + (212 in 1994). Hall of Famer Willie McCovey only had one season higher (209 in 1969). That's higher than any season Hall of Famer Willie Mays ever had in a single season. That's higher than any season Hall of Famer Hank Aaron ever had in one season. That's higher than any season Hall of Famer Joe DiMaggio ever had in any one season.

To say that the Barry Bonds who played for the Pirates is nothing like the Barry Bonds that played for the Giants is a completely inaccurate statement.

He was 28 years old his first season in San Francisco. I believe that regardless of PED use or not, Bonds was on his way to becoming a 40-40 player. If you look at his numbers, he was decreasing his strikeouts, and walking more...substantially more, his last three years as a Pirate. His annual walk totals raised from 93 to 107 to 127. His strikeout totals dropped from 83 to 73 and 69 his last year (though he did come to bat 37 fewer times in his last year). His 34 home runs in 1992 was a career high, and he still stole 39 bases. He'd go on to win 5 more Gold Gloves in San Francisco.

Even if Bonds hadn't used PEDs, and his home run totals remained in the mid 30s per season, he was still going to be a member of the 500 home run club. His RBI totals would have ended up about where they are. Even when he hit 73 home runs in 2001, he only drove in 137 runs. He's still driving in 110 + runs a year hitting 30-35 home runs.

Bonds didn't need to use PEDs to become a great player, nor did he need PEDs to become a Hall of Fame player. Perhaps he used them to prolong his career. Maybe he had physical issues that we do not know about. Whatever the case, and whatever his motivation may have been, Barry Bonds would still have been considered one of the greatest players to ever play the game without PEDs, and rightfully so.

Bonds hit 46 home runs his first season in SF. He was on pace to hit 53+ HRs when the strike hit in 94. His teammate Matt Williams was on pace to hit 62+. Bonds put up those numbers going from a hitters park in Pitt to a pitchers park in SF. Something fishy was going on in SF.

You can says you believe that Bonds was on his way to the HOF and didn't need steroids, but we'll never know. Bonds obviously felt he needed them. Being on pace for Hof doesn't make it a sure thing.Roger Maris was coming off back to back MVPs, didn't make it.Dick Allen was coming off 4 160 Ops+ seasons and 5 of his first six years, didn’t make it.Dale Murphy had just won back to back MVPs, didn't make it. HOF is for a great career, not a few good years. Bonds became a HOFER while on steroids, in my opinion. If he wanted to be HOF, he should have done it clean.

[frankh8147]

I'm a little younger but for pitcher, I go Greg Maddux, batter is unfortunatley Barry Bonds.

[7nohitter]

Nolan Ryan