Attn TICKET COLLECTORS - GEHRIG!!

[Shoeless Moe]

No I'm sure she sat home on Lou Gehrig day. Idiot.

[thecatspajamas]

Not sure why you get so offended when someone questions your reasoning for using terms like "holy grail" and "only one of its kind" here. Net54 is a place to evaluate and discuss sports collectibles, and the members here are known more for questioning puffery than accepting it wholesale. I think Tom makes some good points. At the risk of being likewise branded an idiot, might I ask why you think your pass should command a 67% premium over the other example you quoted?

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

No I'm sure she sat home on Lou Gehrig day. Idiot.

I would like to see this discussion copied to the memorabilia sub-forum, so that we can give you the response you deserve.

[Shoeless Moe]

Here's the requested shot of the back of it.

[1963Topps Set]

First and foremost, I want to thank all of the forum members who came to my defense here and in private messages. It is greatly appreciated.

All I did was give my honest opinion of this piece. A great piece doesn't have to be "talked up". Many collectors will know what it is regardless of the advertisement and bid the item to it's full potential.

As for the piece itself, if it belonged to Gehrig's wife Eleanor, then I don't think it would of been any question about the pass being in a ballpark of a "holy grail" piece. I can even say that if the pass belonged to Lou's parents.

Bill Knickerbocker played in a whopping SIX games for the Yankees in 1939, hitting an astounding .154. IF Mrs. Knickerbocker attended any games, seems she basically saw her husband riding the bench.

As for Lou Gehrig's Day, July 4, 1939, you offer NO proof that Mrs. Knickerbocker attended this game. You offer an assumption, a perhaps, a maybe at best. You have provided absolutely NO documentation or photos that she was at this game. Maybe she was, maybe she wasn't. Is anyone willing to gamble a couple of grand she was?

As for the 6 games her husband played in only ONE was played while Gehrig played. That was the game of April 25, 1939. The other games he played in were July 8, 1939, July 30, 1939, September 17, 1939, September 28, 1939 and September 30, 1939, long AFTER Lou left the team.

As you can see, Bill was not actively playing for the Yankees on July 4, 1939 when the team had Lou Gehrig Day (That doesn't mean he wasn't there, but it doesn't mean his wife was, since her husband wasn't playing that day.)

I do not believe Mrs. Knickerbocker took the time to hang out at the ballpark if her husband was not playing during the regular season games. She was given the pass as a gratis since her husband was on the roster. I am sure every spouse got one. Does your wife go everywhere you go?

As for your comment of being an "idiot", it reminds me of the old saying:

The first man to raise his fists is the first to run out of ideas.

I think the facts of the case and the feedback speaks for itself.. and I'll leave it at that.

Happy Holidays,

[Shoeless Moe]

Tom,

1st let's address my use of the words Holy Grail, this is an opinion, of mine. And can be used on any number of pieces and its all in the eyes of the beholder. You collect 1963 Topps cards, I'm not familiar with those but perhaps a Pete Rose signed one would be consider a Holy Grail item to all the 63 Topps collectors, as this may be to Ticket Collectors, there is only one other, that's pretty rare, and 1939 was a pretty historical season, so not sure what makes your opinion better than mine. If there is such a Holy Grail among the 63 Topps set, it would be to 63Topps guys, not to me...and if you said it was, I sure wouldn't jump into one of your posts and say it wasn't. Again why so offended by use of the word Holy Grail? It's all in the eyes of the beholder.

Are you a ticket collector? If so their your opinion would hold more weight, but you just joined a month ago and I'm assuming of course but your a card guy right? Take a look at the pop report on PSA for Yankees season passes for the Ruth/Gehrig years, some years there are none, some 1, some a couple, these are very rare, unlike cards where they are mass produced. So I'm not retracting this is a holy grail type item to me and to some ticket collectors. See your lucky there are probably 4000 Elston Howard cards. So when I see something like this and belonging to a teammate of Gehrig or his wife as you say, it's pretty cool.

2nd you made a comment does your wife go everywhere you go. Times now are very different than 1939 and Knickerbocker was a journeyman ballplayer, he played for the Yankees in 1938, 1939 and 1940, he also played 9 seasons and for Cleveland, St. Louis, Chicago and Philly, and on another pass of his/hers lists her location as a hotel. So I take it they were on the move together a lot, and where else is she gonna go, especially since there is evidence they were pretty much traveling every couple years. I would think that makes it even more likely she might be with other players wives and attending games, being in a town, NY, away from their families. If you were from say Kansas City, and were a member of the Yankees and played next to Gehrig, or lets say Jeter, and your wife lived with you in the town you played, and she had no family there, and had a pass to attend your home games, and again this is 1939, not a lot else to do, I would hope your wife would go. I know mine would.

And yes he was a utility man who played sporadically, but all you did was show was that he was on their roster all season long and rode the bench alot, did his wife know in advance if he was playing or not playing, don't they announce lineups for the most part the day of. So perhaps she went every game in rare hopes of seeing her husband play, you can just as sure assume that as assuming she didn't go as you did playing devil's advocate.

And with a planned Lou Gehrig Day, and all the Yankees in attendance old and current, and her husbands name on the plaque they gave to Lou, you really think she stayed home/at the hotel????

And you say "it didn't belong to Knickerbocker" but rather his wife, another negative comment. Sure it belonged to him, they were married. You just like to nit pick. And re-read the post did I ever say she used it at every game, um no.

And your comment "I do not believe Mrs. Knickerbocker took the time to hang out at the ballpark if her husband was not playing during the regular season games." REALLY? now who is assuming things. So if this was yours and you were selling it, would you add that comment, "I do not believe MrsKnickerbocker took the time to hang out at the ballpark". I hope your not in Sales. Again if I'm playing for the Yankees I want my wife their every game, especially if I'm a bench player, who knows when I'm getting in, so be there every game just in case. I think that is a more likely theory then your knowledge on 1930's ballplayers wives thoughts. Also, look at the use on the pass, looks pretty used to me. If it were pristine, then maybe you'd have a point. But......you don't.

And what better year to be a bench player then the year Lou took himself out of the lineup and sat on the bench the rest of the season himself. Your showing the games Bill did play shows they probably spent a lot of time on the bench together. Lucky Bill.

Anyhow I'm done responding, I know how cool this piece is and to each his own, you may be a card guy, I have no interest there I'm a ticket guy, nothing I said in the original post was incorrect, please re-read it. It's your opinion if you don't think its a holy grail item, mine is it is. And the price said or best offer.

Oh and thanks to the fellow NET54-er who agreed with me that it was not bloody likely she stayed home Lou Gehrig day.

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by 1963Topps Set

A great piece doesn't have to be "talked up".

On this point we do agree, it's a GREAT piece.....thank you!

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

On this point we do agree, it's a GREAT piece.....thank you!

Good luck with the sale of your very cool item Paul.

Not only is it tacky to post garbage in someone's sales thread it is also against the rules.

[1963Topps Set]

First of all Paul, thank you for your well written and educated reply. I know that you had to take the time to compose such a letter. I know you may not believe me, but I didn't mean any harm to your sale. I was just merely stating my humble opinion in my initial post. I never asked you to retract the sale or change the listing. If you believe the item is a "holy grail" item, then so be it. A buyer would have to agree with you, and that would be the most important thing. My second post was a direct response to you calling me an "idiot", which I felt was uncalled for. We may not agree here, but I feel you owe me an apology for that. I never took to name calling in my posts.

Finally, I do wish you all of the luck in your sales. Happy Holidays and Happy New Year. I do hope that it is happy, and healthy for all concerned.

[marvymelvin]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Good luck with the sale of your very cool item Paul.

Not only is it tacky to post garbage in someone's sales thread it is also against the rules.

It seems that Bens point just got swept under the carpet and ignored. Tom, it is not only bad manners, but as Ben mentioned it is against board rules to make derogatory comments in the BST section. If Paul had posted a question in the memorabilia forum about the pass's significance have at it, but in the BST it is just disrespectful. And no, semi apologizing by stating that you hope the controversy will increase the liklihood of a sale is nonsense. You decreased interest and value with your comments, and it is not a meaningful apology. Paul does not owe you an apology. In fact it is the other way around. Leon, maybe a reminder of this rule to the board and to Tom is in order.

[Shoeless Moe]

$1250 or best offer!

priced to sell now.....who want's it, put it next to your Gehrig signed ball or TYPE 1 photos