Cards that CAN and CANNOT be soaked?!

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by I Only Smoke 4 the Cards

No offense taken. I think we have had this conversation before on the board and people seem to have strong opinions on both sides.

If you are doing something to the card that you do not disclose to the buyer than you are doing something wrong...

to me soaking worse than 'schilling' that everyone is angry about...

fine to soak if you disclose it to the buyer.....if not a big deal then the buyer will pay the same no?

You can do it to your own cards but eventually they will reach the secondary market....

[1880nonsports]

have been soaked from something. The cards look better without paper glued on the back that wasn't originally there. If you ever buy a card from me please assume it was at one time soaked - something I will freely disclose if asked............
the double standard quote was quite good.

[1880nonsports]

leaves me nearly speechless.....................

[Kzoo]

Originally Posted by 1880nonsports

leaves me nearly speechless.....................

+1

[1952boyntoncollector]

You don't have to buy a card if its priced to high......plus whoever is shilling..if they 'win' the item they will pay 10% etc..so I don't think it can be that common.... if a card you want to sell for 250..and its at 200..you going to shill for 220? if win you just lost 22 dollars..makes no sense

there are enough ebay auctions and auctions out there we can come up with what we want to offer for a card..if a card is bid too high, we don't buy it..

a reserve is almost the same thing as a schill bid or a starting price at the amount the seller wants...it all comes down to what the buyer wants to pay for the card....a card is worth what someone wants to pay for it..

but at least the buyer knows exactly what the card is.... a soaked card that is not disclosed is assumed to be not soaked........why not tell the buyers on ebay that a card is soaked if no big deal? I haven't seen one listing that says that..

however I see lots of starting prices and reserves on cards...so buyers know how much the seller wants for the card, shilled or not.....at least the buyer knows what the card is..

when cards are won , they we know what someone was willing to pay for the card..whether there were prior shill bids or not.......the card is the card.....

if put 'card was soaked'...will the prices go down from a same listing in which saying the card wasn't soaked?..... if the value is the same..then i a wrong soaking doesn't matter...


but if someone is willing to pay $500 for a card whether there was a shilling to get there or a reserve price...was the problem...to the buyer its worth $500........if put 'buy it now' for $500...or shilling..the outcome is the same....with the soaking ..its not...or lets see at least one ebay listing saying card was soaked...

if a seller of a 1952 Mantle psa tells you on an auction yesterday, that he shilled up to $30,000..cause he didn't want it go for less than that..and he risked paying $3,000 if he
'won' and the card ultimately sold for $35,000...would you subtract value for that? how about if he told you in soaked the card? ...which one hurts the value more..thoughts?

[Mikehealer]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

You don't have to buy a card if its priced to high......plus whoever is shilling..if they 'win' the item they will pay 10% etc..so I don't think it can be that common.... if a card you want to sell for 250..and its at 200..you going to shill for 220? if win you just lost 22 dollars..makes no sense

there are enough ebay auctions and auctions out there we can come up with what we want to offer for a card..if a card is bid too high, we don't buy it..

a reserve is almost the same thing as a schill bid or a starting price at the amount the seller wants...it all comes down to what the buyer wants to pay for the card....a card is worth what someone wants to pay for it..

but at least the buyer knows exactly what the card is.... a soaked card that is not disclosed is assumed to be not soaked........why not tell the buyers on ebay that a card is soaked if no big deal? I haven't seen one listing that says that..

however I see lots of starting prices and reserves on cards...so buyers know how much the seller wants for the card, shilled or not.....at least the buyer knows what the card is..

when cards are won , they we know what someone was willing to pay for the card..whether there were prior shill bids or not.......the card is the card.....

if put 'card was soaked'...will the prices go down from a same listing in which saying the card wasn't soaked?..... if the value is the same..then i a wrong soaking doesn't matter...


but if someone is willing to pay $500 for a card whether there was a shilling to get there or a reserve price...was the problem...to the buyer its worth $500........if put 'buy it now' for $500...or shilling..the outcome is the same....with the soaking ..its not...or lets see at least one ebay listing saying card was soaked...

if a seller of a 1952 Mantle psa tells you on an auction yesterday, that he shilled up to $30,000..cause he didn't want it go for less than that..and he risked paying $3,000 if he
'won' and the card ultimately sold for $35,000...would you subtract value for that? how about if he told you in soaked the card? ...which one hurts the value more..thoughts?

You asked for thoughts, so here are mine. Try proofreading your posts before hitting the submit button. Also to suggest soaking a card in water is worse than shilling is ridiculous.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Mikehealer

You asked for thoughts, so here are mine. Try proofreading your posts before hitting the submit button. Also to suggest soaking a card in water is worse than shilling is ridiculous.

I glad you discussed the content of the post....talking about proofreading etc seems like you are avoiding the actual discussion....

if you think a card is bid too high due to shilling you can choose not to buy the card..or can choose to buy the card at your price......... to say 'is ridiculous' with no content of an argument is ridiculous......

so basically anything you say after this post..ill just post that what you say is ridiculous..........(if your post actually has content and doesn't just address proofreading)......

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Kzoo

+1

leaves me speechless..that you are left speechless

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by 1880nonsports

have been soaked from something. The cards look better without paper glued on the back that wasn't originally there. If you ever buy a card from me please assume it was at one time soaked - something I will freely disclose if asked............
the double standard quote was quite good.

I am fine with that soaking to restore etc..as long as it is assumed or known to the buyer... I wouldn't assume that on a 1952 topps card for example....

[Peter_Spaeth]

The overwhelming majority of collectors do not oppose soaking. You are free to believe what you want, of course. But huge numbers of prewar cards have been soaked to remove them safely from scrapbooks, just a fact of life. And I very much doubt you can tell.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

The overwhelming majority of collectors do not oppose soaking. You are free to believe what you want, of course. But huge numbers of prewar cards have been soaked to remove them safely from scrapbooks, just a fact of life. And I very much doubt you can tell.

How about postwar..i think my issue is more with postwar...

[Tao_Moko]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

How about postwar..i think my issue is more with postwar...

You should share your thoughts of Post-War soaking in that section.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Tao_Moko

You should share your thoughts of Post-War soaking in that section.

Well I talking about both pre and post war..so thought it would be better to take care of in one thread instead of two separate threads....

[Kzoo]

Originally Posted by Tao_Moko

You should share your thoughts of Post-War soaking in that section.

+1 (again)

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

If you are doing something to the card that you do not disclose to the buyer than you are doing something wrong...

to me soaking worse than 'schilling' that everyone is angry about...

fine to soak if you disclose it to the buyer.....if not a big deal then the buyer will pay the same no?

You can do it to your own cards but eventually they will reach the secondary market....

I'll respond since I was quoted. Soaking happens and is usually not disclosed. Right or wrong it happens. I would wager that virtually all crisp pre-war cards were glued into a book at one time.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by I Only Smoke 4 the Cards

I'll respond since I was quoted. Soaking happens and is usually not disclosed. Right or wrong it happens. I would wager that virtually all crisp pre-war cards were glued into a book at one time.

shilling happens too......so its fine as well with that logic..

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

shilling happens too......so its fine as well with that logic..

That's exactly what I was getting at. Thanks!

[JT1962]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

shilling happens too......so its fine as well with that logic..

Shilling is actually against the law, it is consider a form of fraud. 15 years ago or so the FBI arrested a couple guys on EBay for shilling. They raised prices for 2-4 years 3-8 million dollars, if I remember correctly. To say shilling is not any worse than soaking. That is only based on your own personal logic, which is idiotic.

[ejharrington]

Originally Posted by JT1962

Shilling is actually against the law, it is consider a form of fraud. 15 years ago or so the FBI arrested a couple guys on EBay for shilling. They raised prices for 2-4 years 3-8 million dollars, if I remember correctly. To say shilling is not any worse than soaking. That is only based on your own personal logic, which is idiotic.

There is no law against doctoring baseball cards either. It doesn't make it right.

I don't know how anyone can justify soaking baseball cards in water or any other chemical (yes, water is a chemical).

[OldOriole]

Originally Posted by ejharrington

I don't know how anyone can justify soaking baseball cards in water or any other chemical (yes, water is a chemical).

Quite a few people on this thread clearly approve of soaking and some even give helpful suggestions to avoid damaging the cards. To me, soaking is completely fine...you are removing material that was not there at the time of production and was not intended to be on the card. The cards were mean to be held and enjoyed. Clearly, the backs were meant to be read, hence the advertising. Thank goodness for soaking or else many of us would not have a significant portion of the cards in our collections to enjoy.

[Goudey77]

If soaking is acceptable practice then so should cleaning via other methods?
Not challenging the stance here. I just think its a simple yes or no for cleaning (without chemicals). If people want to argue the technicalities then I disagree since it's over complicating the situation. It should be a general rule of thumb if a stance is taken here.

Originally Posted by OldOriole

Quite a few people on this thread clearly approve of soaking and some even give helpful suggestions to avoid damaging the cards. To me, soaking is completely fine...you are removing material that was not there at the time of production and was not intended to be on the card. The cards were mean to be held and enjoyed. Clearly, the backs were meant to be read, hence the advertising. Thank goodness for soaking or else many of us would not have a significant portion of the cards in our collections to enjoy.

[insidethewrapper]

Could someone post or PM me the step by step process of soaking ? Time involved, type of water, time to dry, pressure on card, etc. I have no idea at this time how to do it, I have never tried it. Thanks

[brianp-beme]

Here is a pretty detailed account of the process posted previously on this site by David K.

Brian


I've soaked many trade cards over the last 20 years, including full and partial scrapbook pages, as well as a smaller number of T206s and other tobacco cards. How successful a soaking is depends largely on what type of glue was used, and you never really know that until the soaking is under way; however, the skill of the soaker also plays a part. Here's how I do it:

* I generally use a wide, shallow baking pan, though this partly has to do with the fact that most trade cards are bigger than tobacco cards, so putting them in a glass, as the original poster showed, won't really work. That's especially true for full scrapbook pages, which is how I got my start soaking more than 20 years ago.

* I fill it at least half an inch to an inch deep with warm-to-hot tap water. I've found that water from my kitchen faucet at its hottest setting is fine for soaking, and will not damage cards.

* I put the card or cards flat in the water with the paper/glue side up. You may see bubbling when the glue hits the hot water, but that's not necessary for a successful soak. If a card keeps floating to the surface rather than staying completely underwater, I may use a spoon to hold it down, leaning the spoon handle on the side of the pan.

* I generally let the cards soak for at least 5 or 10 minutes, unless the paper starts separating from the card all by itself. I'll try at this point, using my fingers or a Q-tip, to see if the paper is starting to come off. If it is, I'll do what I can to separate it from the card, carefully, always watching to make sure there's no paper being lost from the back of the card. If there is, I'll stop and let it soak some more.

* If the paper isn't coming off after 5 or 10 minutes, I'll let the card soak for another 15 or 20 minutes and try again as above. If the paper is coming off, great; if not, I let it soak some more. Once the water has cooled down to room temperature, I'll take the cards out, put them on a paper towel, refill the pan with warm-to-hot water as above, and put the cards back in to soak. I've sometimes had to do this multiple times and soak cards for over an hour. If that's what it takes, that's what you need to do.

* If the paper doesn't come completely off in one piece, I may need to try getting it off gradually, using my finger or (usually better) a Q-tip. This is where skill and experience comes in. You don't want to scrape it too hard, thus making the chance of paper loss much greater, but sometimes you need to rub at the paper and glue repeatedly until it starts to come off bit by bit. I always watch carefully for signs of paper loss at this point, and stop if I see any. I'll try soaking some more before trying again, but sometimes you encounter a glue that's not going to come off without some damage.

* After all the paper is off, I rub the back of the card with my finger or a Q-tip to get all the glue off. You can usually tell when it's off, because the back of the card stops being slippery or sticky (as it is when there's still glue). If you don't get the glue off before drying the card, you'll have problems.

* I press the cards between two paper towels in order to soak up as much of the water as possible.

* I then put a fresh paper towel on a book or other flat surface, put the cards on it, put another fresh paper towel on top of them, and then put a stack of books (or another flat, heavy object) on top of that.

* I let the cards dry for at least three or four days, changing the paper towels after the first day. When they're done drying, I remove the paper towels carefully, making sure none of the paper is sticking to the cards (which may mean there was some glue left on the cards).

[yanks87]

I am going to preface my statement by saying that I understand the difference between the card scandals running rampant in the high grade cards currently and this, but I still have an issue how this thread is so openly accepted and people who trim, recolor, or alter cards are blasted. If the card is staying in your collection, you can do whatever you want to it, the gray area comes in when the intent is to resell the card. Soaking cards compromises the genuine integrity of the card for one benefit, to remove part of it's story to increase the value. Apples to apples with pressing, trimming and recoloring. In a truly benign question, can someone explain how this is any different than a non-acceptable method of card alteration?

[conor912]

Originally Posted by yanks87

If the card is staying in your collection, you can do whatever you want to it, the gray area comes in when the intent is to resell the card.

Many would argue that the latter (the card finding it's way back on to the open market) is inevitable. None of us really "own" anything. The cards belong to the hobby, and each of us is just a shepherd of our respective collections, therefore none of us have the right to alter anything for next "owner", regardless of how far in the future that is.

There is also the argument that undoing something that was done (removing glue, paper, writing, etc) is not as looked down on as, say, trimming.

It gets pretty mind-f*cky. I think that political leanings also have something to do with it.

That was a joke, people. Lighten up.

I personally think it's dangerous to subscribe to an all or nothing approach for anything. I'm generally a "don't touch it" guy, but concede there are instances where action might be prudent.

[yanks87]

Originally Posted by conor912

It gets pretty mind-f*cky.

Well put, that is why I had to lob it out there. All that said, I buy cards that look like they were not only chewed on by the dog, but fully processed, if you catch my meaning. It is one of the posts that when it comes back to the surface doesn't sit super well with me in a hypocritical sense. But again, what the hell do I know, just had to ask the question.

[marcdelpercio]

Originally Posted by yanks87

I am going to preface my statement by saying that I understand the difference between the card scandals running rampant in the high grade cards currently and this, but I still have an issue how this thread is so openly accepted and people who trim, recolor, or alter cards are blasted. If the card is staying in your collection, you can do whatever you want to it, the gray area comes in when the intent is to resell the card. Soaking cards compromises the genuine integrity of the card for one benefit, to remove part of it's story to increase the value. Apples to apples with pressing, trimming and recoloring. In a truly benign question, can someone explain how this is any different than a non-acceptable method of card alteration?

Here's the analogy I would give on this one. Imagine that you had a 1963 Corvette that you are going to sell as completely factory original. On the way to the auction, a bird poops on the hood of the car. What do you do? Clearly, most people would say that they would take a wet cloth and wipe it off. Is the car altered or any less original at that point? Certainly not.

Now imagine instead that before you took it to the auction, you touched up some paint scratches and replaced some small pieces of bumper trim that were damaged. Is the car less original then? Yes, obviously it is as you have added/altered original parts of the car with substances that were NOT part of the original composition.

To me, that is the simple difference between soaking a card and altering it otherwise.

[yanks87]

OK, I kinda get that analogy, but at the same time I think it only holds up for something like rubber cement which can in most cases be rubbed off (hey now!), but when the card as a whole has to be dipped to remove glue, I think it gets in the gray area of doing overall damage to the integrity of the card.

So using your analogy, you would clean the bird poop off the '63 by submerging the entire car in water to remove it. Though you have removed the blemish, you have compromised the card as a whole in the process.

Splitting hairs I guess, but I feel it is a bigger deal than just a surface removal, and either way, the card is altered in my opinion.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

If you are doing something to the card that you do not disclose to the buyer than you are doing something wrong...

to me soaking worse than 'schilling' that everyone is angry about...

fine to soak if you disclose it to the buyer.....if not a big deal then the buyer will pay the same no?

You can do it to your own cards but eventually they will reach the secondary market....

If you are a pre-war baseball card collector, and have lots of cards, you have some that have been soaked. Saying soaking is worse than shill bidding is crazy to me.

Back to topic, T207s soak fine!!

[jburl]

Originally Posted by Leon

If you are a pre-war baseball card collector, and have lots of cards, you have some that have been soaked. Saying soaking is worse than shill bidding is crazy to me.

Back to topic, T207s soak fine!!

I didn't see T211s listed, but they soak fine, too.

[trdcrdkid]

Originally Posted by jburl

I didn't see T211s listed, but they soak fine, too.

I soaked a T217 and had no problems.

[Mikehealer]

Originally Posted by Leon

Saying soaking is worse than shill bidding is crazy to me.

I agree Leon, that is a ridiculous statement.

[PowderedH2O]

Has anyone tried a glossy photo type card? I have some R311's with major scrapbook pages attached that I would love to get off of there.

[begsu1013]

quick question:

i have a 62 venezuelan herb score that has some album left on it.

can this issue be done?



i know nothing about soaking* and would normally consider it taboo for post war cards.

prewar, i totally get and i think the venezuelans fall into the prewar category considering many of them were affixed to albums as well.

anyways, any helps and/or tips are appreciated.


* i have read a few threads on the actual process but have never attempted one.

[kevinlenane]

Soaking Wheaties hand cuts is an absolute disaster.

[Hot Springs Bathers]

Sam & Mike - I have great luck with everything from cards to old programs that have been glued in scrapbooks by using a stack of Q-tips and a bowl of water.

I slowly soak the paper or glue with a little water on the Q-tip and then let it sit for a minute or two. I then check the paper with tweezers or my fingernail to see if it is loose or softened. If not I add a little more moisture and continue to do so until it comes off.

If it is simply glue spots I dab them with a paper towel. I once did an entire 1953/54 Parkhurst hockey set that way and they honestly looked like they had never been glued.

Of course some glues just can not be dissolved by water.