Most overrated pre-war card?

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by btcarfagno

Magee may not be famous but he does deserve to be in the Hall of Fame. If that injustice were ever corrected it would actually make the card underrated.

Tom C

I agree he should be in.

Originally Posted by 1963Topps Set

I have to agree the Wagner card.. Especially since a lot of it's notariety is based on a fraud.. Mastro!

No, the Gretzky Wagner's notoriety is based off of fraud. The demand, and the price the T206 Wagner commands, is based off of rarity, lore, and the fact that the toughest card to acquire from maybe the most famous set ever made is one of the very greatest players to ever step on a baseball field.

Originally Posted by 1963Topps Set

I feel Jackie Robinson is the most important player in the "hobby" and in baseball.

Mickey Mantle can go down as the player with the most potential who didn't really live up to it.

You can feel whatever you want as far as who you feel is the most important player in the hobby. Jackie Robinson was a tremendous player, and man. I don't think he's the most important, or popular player in the hobby, though.

And missed potential? Mickey Mantle?

Since 1901, 169 players have amassed a WAR (Wins Above Replacement) metric of over 50. Mickey Mantle has the 16th highest WAR of all players in the last 113 years.

I'm not sure how he missed his potential. He had 15 broken bones during his career. He tore up his knee as a rookie (and this was in 1951, long before they had the kind of minimally invasive procedures they can do today). Well, I've torn up my left knee. I've had about 30 broken bones. And I can't get out of bed some days. Mantle not only got out of bed, he hit balls onto the roof of old Yankee Stadium. He won a Triple Crown, and three MVPs. He hit 18 home runs in the World Series, still a record.

The guy didn't miss any of his potential. Could he have 600 home runs if he'd taken a little better care of himself? Maybe. But to say he's the player with the most potential that didn't live up to it is just wrong. I'm sorry. Three MVPs. Three MVP second place finishes. A third place finish. Two fifth place finishes. He played 18 seasons, two of which he played fewer than 100 games. Of those remaining sixteen seasons, nine of them he placed no lower than fifth place in the MVP. He had a .994 OPS for the decade of the 50s. The guy was a megastar.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Bill James rates Mantle 6th of all time. He points out among other things that he walked a phenomenal amount, and had a career on base percentage of .421.

[bn2cardz]

Any card sold for more than $100,000. They include the same ink and are printed on the same cardboard as the other cards in a particular set. This gets me even more when it is the difference of a minimal amount of ink (looking at you Doyle t206 NY Nat'l variation: PSA 3 Nat'l = $411,250.00, PSA 3 without Nat'l = $71)

I enjoy cards but I would rather stick to cards that don't cost me the same as buying a house. I can't even think of paying off the lot car prices for a card not alone house prices.

[1952boyntoncollector]

some paintings have a little bit of ink..like 3 lines with different colors and they are 1 million.and you can get paintings with more ink for 1 dollar...

it not about the ink man..

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

some paintings have a little bit of ink..like 3 lines with different colors and they are 1 million.and you can get paintings with more ink for 1 dollar...

it not about the ink man..

We aren't talking about paintings...

Even if we did want to use paintings as a reference point you would have to find two paintings done by the same painter in the same studio with the same medium in the same period that had a price difference of 579,225% due to one stroke of the brush. That is the difference paid in the Doyle situation for a card that was printed on the same sheet in the same factory by the same company with the same subject matter.

Should there be premiums paid. Sure. Yet no card, to me, can be worth over $100,000 (I could even say nothing over $13,000, when a brand new car can be had for $12,800 msrp). It is an arbitrary line, I admit that, but that is my opinion.

[packs]

To me an overrated card is one that is expensive for dopey reasons and not expensive because it's rare or even desired.

The Wags is expensive because it's known as an expensive card. It's not because it's the rarest card ever or even that it's really all that desired. Non-collectors only want it because they know it's expensive, not because it's a card of Honus Wagner and not because it's a T206. This is evident in all the coverage sales of the card get from outlets totally uninterested in baseball cards. So to me that makes it overrated.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I think any variation of a common player that commands a huge premium is overrated. Hoblitzel no stats for example. The Doyle. Nodgrass. and so forth

[1952boyntoncollector]

Any time you buy something with intrinsic value, theres always a chance its 'overvalued' We aren't buying gold, heck even the US Dollar can be overvalued its just paper....I can do more with gold...

eventually I worry this is all just a Ponzi scheme and for the 3000 dollars cards..people will say its just cardboard..and not drawn by an artist..

i don't even understand why paintings go for millions but theres a market...when the economy collapses..the best of the best always have a market..but these lower condition cards .the PSA 1s-4s on the big cards i do think are overvalued..cause they will be first to go down..as the upper middle class buyers will have less money ...the PSA 8s that's a different story

[Jayworld]

Originally Posted by packs

To me an overrated card is one that is expensive for dopey reasons and not expensive because it's rare or even desired.

I like this rationale.

In my opinion:
T206 Titus - is this "coolness" solely because he is the only player depicted (to my knowledge) with a mustache in the set?

[Huysmans]

Originally Posted by bn2cardz

Any card sold for more than $100,000. They include the same ink and are printed on the same cardboard as the other cards in a particular set. This gets me even more when it is the difference of a minimal amount of ink (looking at you Doyle t206 NY Nat'l variation: PSA 3 Nat'l = $411,250.00, PSA 3 without Nat'l = $71)

I enjoy cards but I would rather stick to cards that don't cost me the same as buying a house. I can't even think of paying off the lot car prices for a card not alone house prices.

I completely agree. To me the most overated are the Goudey Ruths. There's 4 of them for pete's sake! While not the most expensive cards, still way too much for cards that are that abundant. And when it comes to cards in excess of $100,000, I'd rather own something more relevant to baseball history. I'd much sooner have a Ruth game used bat than a high grade Baltimore News. Ruth handled and used the bat to ply his trade, while the BM is just a piece of cardboard the happens to have his picture on it. Don't get me wrong, I love cards, but theyre not as historically significant as memorabilia to me. Just my opinion lads.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Huysmans

I completely agree. To me the most overated are the Goudey Ruths. There's 4 of them for pete's sake!

Big +1, but they are high-quality and beautiful, especially the yellow background one.

Also high-grade M116 Sporting Life. You could order these pristine in sets - they had none of the worries of cards packed in cigarette packages or candy boxes - plus their designs are about as basic as you can get outside of a strip card.

Strip-card Ruth 'cards' are also way overpriced in my opinion.

[Cozumeleno]

Agree with someone's earlier post on the Bengough 1933 Goudey. Also, it's not as valuable, but I'd throw the Moe Berg card in there, too, since I posted about it recently.

Just irks me to no end that that card is right up there in value with legit Hall of Famers like Mel Ott, Rogers Hornsby, Paul Waner, Mickey Cochrane, etc. WWII spy - I get it. Kinda cool. But his card's value shouldn't be nearly that high IMO.

[bbsports]

In the T206 set, besides the hoarded Titus, how about Red Kleinow catching pose of Boston. People say it's the tougher version in the T206 set, but I think there just as many New York versions as Boston versions. In vintage cards, how about the 1952 Topps #1 Andy Pafko card. Just because it's the #1 card in the set why should this card as expensive?

[rats60]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Quote:
Originally Posted by 1963Topps Set View Post
I feel Jackie Robinson is the most important player in the "hobby" and in baseball.

Mickey Mantle can go down as the player with the most potential who didn't really live up to it.




You can feel whatever you want as far as who you feel is the most important player in the hobby. Jackie Robinson was a tremendous player, and man. I don't think he's the most important, or popular player in the hobby, though.

And missed potential? Mickey Mantle?

Since 1901, 169 players have amassed a WAR (Wins Above Replacement) metric of over 50. Mickey Mantle has the 16th highest WAR of all players in the last 113 years.

I'm not sure how he missed his potential. He had 15 broken bones during his career. He tore up his knee as a rookie (and this was in 1951, long before they had the kind of minimally invasive procedures they can do today). Well, I've torn up my left knee. I've had about 30 broken bones. And I can't get out of bed some days. Mantle not only got out of bed, he hit balls onto the roof of old Yankee Stadium. He won a Triple Crown, and three MVPs. He hit 18 home runs in the World Series, still a record.

The guy didn't miss any of his potential. Could he have 600 home runs if he'd taken a little better care of himself? Maybe. But to say he's the player with the most potential that didn't live up to it is just wrong. I'm sorry. Three MVPs. Three MVP second place finishes. A third place finish. Two fifth place finishes. He played 18 seasons, two of which he played fewer than 100 games. Of those remaining sixteen seasons, nine of them he placed no lower than fifth place in the MVP. He had a .994 OPS for the decade of the 50s. The guy was a megastar.

I just want to add that I never liked Mantle growing up, I wasn't old enough to see his prime, just his last 5 years or so and I thought he was overrated. Looking back, I really think his place in the hobby is deserved. From 1955-64, he should have won 8 MVPs in my opinion. He was the best player in the AL over that period and the Yankees won the pennant every year except 59. Those 10 years stack up against any player in baseball history. Injuries cut his career short by a few years, so his counting stats are lower than they could have been.

As far as Jackie Robinson, I think he (and Aaron) are vastly overrated in regards to baseball and the hobby. Jackie Robinson is one of the most important people in American history for what he did to integrate the game and for civil rights. However, there are only ~8% of players that are black compared to ~28% latin, so to me Roberto Clemente was more important to the game, enduring "double racism."

As far as overrated cards, to me no cards from T206, 33 Goudey or 52 Topps are overrated. Those are the 3 iconic sets in the hobby that any serious collector should collect. As the backbone of the hobby, the demand for those cards justifies the prices.

[sycks22]

T206 O'hara / Demmitt Polar Bear

[drcy]

When some random studio CDV is suddenly labelled a baseball card and baseball card collectors bid it up to $20,000-- that's often overrated. Or overpriced, if that's something different.

For the record, I also think the 1952 Topps Mantle is overrated. I have nothing against Topps cards or Mantle and understand why its a popularly collected card. I just think it is overrated. I've always defined a collecting 'Holy Grail' as being rare, and the card is far from rare.

I also think the T206 Wagner is overrated, but still considered it 'the' card in the hobby. Unlike the Mantle, it is limited in number and is a cultural legend like Elvis and the Mona Lisa. Nothing wrong with having popular icons.

The Gretzky Wagner is definitely overrated as a baseball card itself-- but has an interesting story. Anything covered by ESPN is bound to be overrated.

These are all just my idle opinions. Feel free to ignore.