Ron and Khyber Oser leave Legendary for Huggins

[1952boyntoncollector]

people keep needing their card to get shilled until finally somebody doesnt do it and gets crushed..but again if its an auction house thats prone to shilling people should just bid less

there are people that get better buys in non shill auctions..and people that get ripped off..and its the same in shill auctions....when i really like a card and know i am willing to pay almost anything..i cant complain if its way above what i can get for it......if im trying to buy a card to resell for example id be more cautious on what i buy...

[1952boyntoncollector]

The issue is..if the shillers truly lose 20% if they 'win' their item and dont get a courtesy waiver..i really dont see how someone would want to risk 'winning' a 2000 dollar card and having to pay 400 for their own card...

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

The issue is..if the shillers truly lose 20% if they 'win' their item and dont get a courtesy waiver..i really dont see how someone would want to risk 'winning' a 2000 dollar card and having to pay 400 for their own card...

I think people probably shill early on to 'kindle' the bidding. I also think that if someone has a low-population or unique item that they want to get a certain amount for, it's going to be worth it to them to shill it, even if it means buying it back;e.g-I paid over $6,000 for a unique item and consigned it. It sold for $3,100. If I were someone who thought shilling my own auctions was okay, I could have possibly won it for the next bid and paid the 20% fee (or had my shiller pay it). That would by far offset a $2,900 loss from selling it for $3,100. I have told that story to a few people, and had more than one look at me like I was crazy and ask why I didn't win it back. People here really do think that way.

But I agree it is difficult to imagine most items selling for prices that would make it worth paying 20% to get your item back.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

The issue is..if the shillers truly lose 20% if they 'win' their item and dont get a courtesy waiver..i really dont see how someone would want to risk 'winning' a 2000 dollar card and having to pay 400 for their own card...

If they paid 6k for it they might pay 400 not to lose 4000....

.. I am NEVER for allowing consignors or auctioneers to bid in their own auctions. EVER.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Leon

If they paid 6k for it they might pay 400 not to lose 4000....

.. I am NEVER for allowing consignors or auctioneers to bid in their own auctions. EVER.

Succinctly said If I could do that as well as you, I probably wouldn't have kids crawling all over by butt in here.

[steve_a]

I'll be counted among those who have no problem with shill bidding as long as the shiller can't see other bids. Shilling is essentially risking the buyers premium to set a hidden reserve price. That "reserve" set by the shiller is just as much a part of market value as what the buyer is willing to pay.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by steve_a

I'll be counted among those who have no problem with shill bidding as long as the shiller can't see other bids. Shilling is essentially risking the buyers premium to set a hidden reserve price. That "reserve" set by the shiller is just as much a part of market value as what the buyer is willing to pay.

I completely am against that. In my mind, If you want a reserve either say what it is or start your item at the least you will take. Be transparent, not fraudulent. You can actually sell, not lose money and still be honest!! I know, it's a novel idea. (and I am not saying I am without fault..but I am not at fault on these issues )

[steve_a]

That would be fine, but what AH lets you set a reserve besides ebay?

[1952boyntoncollector]

[QUOTE=Leon;1346971]If they paid 6k for it they might pay 400 not to lose 4000....


again the seller wouldnt be sure if actually losing 4000 on the item but sure as heck going to be losing 400 and now a new buyer will have to pay another buyer premium and the seller isnt likely to eat another buyer premium....and the past sale will be registered on VCP so will be even harder to get higher amount then they just shilled a safe amount for....its not like they woudl be shilling to an all time past sale high....but rather shilling to not 'give it away at rock bottom prices..which arguably may not be rock bottom but the average sale price ..... plus you are assuming a 6000 dollar card will be going for 2000 with a 400 bp.. and the shill 'won' on 2000..so the lower bid was 1800 or so on a '6000' card..i just dont see that as a likely scenerio.....very very very rare...if ever....and not something as a buyer id worry about....

so the shill gets it to 2000 and as a buyer i 'win' on 2200 on a 6000 card?..id take that as a buyer..

[Leon]

[QUOTE=1952boyntoncollector;1347028]

Originally Posted by Leon

If they paid 6k for it they might pay 400 not to lose 4000....


again the seller wouldnt be sure if actually losing 4000 on the item but sure as heck going to be losing 400 and now a new buyer will have to pay another buyer premium and the seller isnt likely to eat another buyer premium....and the past sale will be registered on VCP so will be even harder to get higher amount then they just shilled a safe amount for....its not like they woudl be shilling to an all time past sale high....but rather shilling to not 'give it away at rock bottom prices..which arguably may not be rock bottom but the average sale price ..... plus you are assuming a 6000 dollar card will be going for 2000 with a 400 bp.. and the shill 'won' on 2000..so the lower bid was 1800 or so on a '6000' card..i just dont see that as a likely scenerio.....very very very rare...if ever....and not something as a buyer id worry about....

so the shill gets it to 2000 and as a buyer i 'win' on 2200 on a 6000 card?..id take that as a buyer..

If the Consignor paid 6k, as I said, then yes at 2k he would be losing 4k.
I merely gave an example where it would make sense to pay 400 BP. And as far as VCP goes, it is a good tool but more are needed. It can be manipulated (via bad sales) just as you are describing.

I don't think You have consigned enough and haven't lost enough to have this conversation if you don't think these scenarios happen. I have lost, yes lost, 10k on one card and I had no inclination to shill it. I win some and I lose some....and sleep well at night. To each their own though. Just please don't consign to my auction if you want to shill.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

people keep needing their card to get shilled until finally somebody doesnt do it and gets crushed..but again if its an auction house thats prone to shilling people should just bid less

there are people that get better buys in non shill auctions..and people that get ripped off..and its the same in shill auctions....when i really like a card and know i am willing to pay almost anything..i cant complain if its way above what i can get for it......if im trying to buy a card to resell for example id be more cautious on what i buy...

It seems as all of the shilled cards have ended up in my and Jeff L's collections. I know when I go to sell at auction I tend to lose part of my big arse....