Happy Halloween Show your Ghosts!

[irishdenny]

Originally Posted by MVSNYC View Post
Brian, I'm not knocking your card, but wasn't there someone (very skilled) who was shaving or skinning cards to create a ghostlike effect, like the above M. Brown example?

Originally Posted by shammus

News to me. This card came from the late Jim Blumenthal who owned the card for 10 years I believe, before he traded it to me in early august. He had acquired it in a Lipset auction back in 2004.

Hey there Brian, MVSNYC(My Apologies, I'm terrible with remembering Names),

I Remember Jim's Card Very Well and Would Be Honored if ThiS Such Card Was iN My CollectioN!
As fir it being tampered with... if I remember correctly, this card was included in a topic of cards that were subject to "Someone's Work".

However, IMHO... JimB had owned and presented this card numerous of times that Well Predate such "Handy Work" of those involved wit creating "Fake Ghost Cards". So No, This Card iS True to the Hobby!

ThiS Card to me iS Iconic!!! And If You Ever Decide that You Might Want to Sell or Trade iT ~ Brian, Please Ring me uP!

"I Truly Would Love to add one of Jim's Cards to my Collection, Especially ThiS One!!!"

[shammus]

Originally Posted by irishdenny

Hey there Brian, MVSNYC(My Apologies, I'm terrible with remembering Names),

I Remember Jim's Card Very Well and Would Be Honored if ThiS Such Card Was iN My CollectioN!
As fir it being tampered with... if I remember correctly, this card was included in a topic of cards that were subject to "Someone's Work".

However, IMHO... JimB had owned and presented this card numerous of times that Well Predate such "Handy Work" of those involved wit creating "Fake Ghost Cards". So No, This Card iS True to the Hobby!

ThiS Card to me iS Iconic!!! And If You Ever Decide that You Might Want to Sell or Trade iT ~ Brian, Please Ring me uP!

"I Truly Would Love to add one of Jim's Cards to my Collection, Especially ThiS One!!!"

Thanks Denny, I appreciate the kind words. I'm curious how recently did this individual create his fake ghost cards? I know the mordecai brown pictured has been in a holder the past decade and I don't think there was any interest in ghosts or printing flubs prior to that was there? At least not enough interest for someone to be out there forging them...

[Bigb13]

image.jpgnot prewar but still cool

[irishdenny]

Originally Posted by shammus

Thanks Denny, I appreciate the kind words. I'm curious how recently did this individual create his fake ghost cards? I know the mordecai brown pictured has been in a holder the past decade and I don't think there was any interest in ghosts or printing flubs prior to that was there? At least not enough interest for someone to be out there forging them...

Greeting AgaiN Brian!,

As far as I know & remember... There were very few of us who collected these types 10 + years or so ago(within the Net54 Community anyways). Back then... I had quite a few of them and even had a tuff time selling & trading them.

As for the Soul with the creative hand... About 2-4 years ago, Do You remember a lad by the name of Kevin Saucier(I believe that was his name!?) He showed up & claimed that he could remove layers of color... and that he new of some other who had created some of the cards that were in circulation that were gaining attention. He even claimed that PSA had labeled some of them "Missing Color"... I was not a believer then, nor am I now!

I do know that these threads should be available iN Archives... Only, I haven't the desire to drum them uP for the sake of side tracking this Wonderful Thread... So I do Hope that You'll forgive me

Rest assured my dear friend... iN my Most Humble OpinioN ~
Your Mordecai iS the Real Deal!
I have No Doubt!!!

[Bigb13]

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[Bigb13]

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[mrvster]

That Starr is super rare and in an elite group of approx. 12 ghost "under print" factory stamps...

get that puppy sgc graded!!! it's an 8 k card at least....that one will get a numerical grade.....very nice card

here's my weimer...sister card to the starr

[Blunder19]

Boo!

[onlychild]

Yes, colors can be removed. Some easier than others. Ghost cards can and have been made this way. Heck, an entire picture (it's fly-wing thin) can be lifted off as well.

In my most humble opinion the Mordecai is still questionable...but it's holdered now. Many on this thread look great.

Kevin Saucier

[mrvster]

are a master

[Bigb13]

Here's another one for you 52 guys image.jpg

[SMPEP]

Gotta love those 1952 triple prints!

Cheers,
Patrick

[irishdenny]

Originally Posted by onlychild

Yes, colors can be removed. Some easier than others. Ghost cards can and have been made this way. Heck, an entire picture (it's fly-wing thin) can be lifted off as well.

In my most humble opinion the Mordecai is still questionable...but it's holdered now. Many on this thread look great.

Kevin Saucier

It is Completely Impossible to Remove the Exact Structure of a Person within any Card from any Year Just by using chemicals... The chemical would spread and ultimately remove more of the colors!

I know that you have a following of members who believe that You have this gift... Some even think You've Master'd this fallacy... I'm not saying that You can't remove colors... And imho, that is a complete an utter crime!

What I am Saying... is that Your knowledge is, and has been Always Talk.
Show us some of Your handy work...

Just to add... I'm not normally this confronting. However...

[Bigb13]

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[ATTACH]v[/ATTACH]

[shammus]

Originally Posted by onlychild

Yes, colors can be removed. Some easier than others. Ghost cards can and have been made this way. Heck, an entire picture (it's fly-wing thin) can be lifted off as well.

In my most humble opinion the Mordecai is still questionable...but it's holdered now. Many on this thread look great.

Kevin Saucier

It would be nice if someone came to the table with a reason as to why the Mordecai is "questionable". Perhaps, something a little more definative about the Mordecai's history that makes it fall into this category? Right now, the argument I'm hearing is "card shaving exists....so therefore the Mordecai must be shaved".

Regarding the card's history, I think we've already established that the e93 has been in a holder for the past 10 years (at least) and it was with Jim B all this time after he bought it in a Lipset Auction. From what people are telling me the artist in question was someone within the past few years?

Does anyone have an example of a shaved card they could post? Then we could at least have something to compare the Mordecai to? The silhouette on the Mordecai looks a little too good to be the result of shaving off part of the card but I'll definitely keep an open mind if someone can post something similar.

Also, has anything been documented on "card shaving"? This is something I've never heard of so it would be helpful to read up on it....

[onlychild]

Brian, I've never heard the term "shaving" in regards to removing colors; always understood that to mean micro-trimming or sanding.

When cards are put through a series of certain chemicals some colors wash away faster than others. The dark green (as seen on Mordecai), browns, and certain blacks hang on longer, while others may fade rather quickly. Why? I don't know. More/less or spot specific ink can be removed depending on the amount of detail desired.

Anyways, here are some examples on why I think the Mordecai card is questionable. I made these and dozens of other altered cards years ago. The t206 below had the background with just the image removed but I decided to keep going. To my knowledge, none of my alterations are in the hobby.

Kevin Saucier

[irishdenny]

Originally Posted by onlychild

Brian, I've never heard the term "shaving" in regards to removing colors; always understood that to mean micro-trimming or sanding.

When cards are put through a series of certain chemicals some colors wash away faster than others. The dark green (as seen on Mordecai), browns, and certain blacks hang on longer, while others may fade rather quickly. Why? I don't know. More/less or spot specific ink can be removed depending on the amount of detail desired.

Anyways, here are some examples on why I think the Mordecai card is questionable. I made these and dozens of other altered cards years ago. The t206 below had the background with just the image removed but I decided to keep going. To my knowledge, none of my alterations are in the hobby.

Kevin Saucier

Hey there Kevin,

Yes... these cards are well known(to me anyway). Scraps & Removing Color has always been of interest of mine. 15 or so years ago, Scraps, Misfits, Freaks etc... were a good part of my collection. I'm curious to see, if You have one, or know of one other, an Example of one that would be iN the same order as Jim's "Mordecai Brown". Mostly, Colors can be removed by chemically neutralizing the specific ink color. Removing a combination of a few colors is not possible without damaging the card, also the chemical solvent would then bleed into the other area of the cards color-litho(In this case, outside the players figure). Even carefully removing one color at a time, would be a very lengthy process... and in the end the card itself would show noticeable damage. Removing the Black ink is the hardest![

This is why I am so confident that Jim's Card is "Scrap" and not made after the factory to look this way.

Just a little disclosure! I grew up New York and one of my friends, their family owns a major printing company. The Family Business is 3 generation's running. My Friend is a little older than me, I believe that he's 57. In the past 10 or so years we have discussed the possibilities of the ink process and in~depth color removal. He has been very Helpful, Helping me to understand what can and can't be done.

And of course, all of this iS, my humble opinion

Oh... Brian, I do believe that this was brought up involving Jim's Card, But I don't remember Jim being involved in the discussion... When I have a bit more time, I'll see if I can come uP wit the Archives... oR maybe someone else can help us out?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by shammus

It would be nice if someone came to the table with a reason as to why the Mordecai is "questionable". Perhaps, something a little more definative about the Mordecai's history that makes it fall into this category? Right now, the argument I'm hearing is "card shaving exists....so therefore the Mordecai must be shaved".

Regarding the card's history, I think we've already established that the e93 has been in a holder for the past 10 years (at least) and it was with Jim B all this time after he bought it in a Lipset Auction. From what people are telling me the artist in question was someone within the past few years?

Does anyone have an example of a shaved card they could post? Then we could at least have something to compare the Mordecai to? The silhouette on the Mordecai looks a little too good to be the result of shaving off part of the card but I'll definitely keep an open mind if someone can post something similar.

Also, has anything been documented on "card shaving"? This is something I've never heard of so it would be helpful to read up on it....

Brian, I am with Kevin on the Mordecai. For me it's just a gut feeling by the way it looks. Yes, it's been around for years but so have many bad (and good) ghostly cards . Also, why is it still residing in a GAI holder? Have you or anyone else (you know of) ever had another grading company look at it? It just doesn't look right to me. But I am not saying I am 100% on it one way or another....

[shammus]

Kevin, thanks for explaining that makes a little more sense now. I had no idea that you could remove color from cards with precision that way. I thought the only real method was soaking, which sort of takes all color away consistantly and with no accuracy.

Leon, the card has been in the same holder since Jim bought it back in 2004. Link is below. I'm not a big fan of sending cards in for grading, have never had an account with SGC or PSA, and probably haven't sent a card in for grading in close to a decade. I guess I could consider it now though since circumstances seem to call for it.
http://www.oldjudge.com/archive/2004...ll/graded/176/

A question though, if this is done with chemicals and not by shaving or sanding the color away, how can it be done to match the curves of the card precisely? Mordecai's silhouette seems to be perfectly shaped still.

Also for the colors themselves, I figure the brown started with a dark green color pass for the background and then added a layer of yellow to lighten the green to the point where it's the bright green you see normally on the e93 Brown. But if you're removing color with chemicals, how does the chemical seek out only the yellow from the paper but leave the dark green? His sleeves also had the lightest grey out of all the spots where you saw a grey or black but you still see a lot of the light grey remaining, where as areas of darker grey, like the "C" on his chest, are completely gone.

Final question, did this ever come up on the board before or discuss it with Jim? Seems like I saw Jim post pictures of this card several times over the years but nobody ever said anything about it before now.