Are some cards too rare for their own good?

[Leon]

As a collector of scarce cards I often wonder if some cards/series are too rare for their own good? They seldom get play time on the board or in discussions.

[Sean]

That's an interesting point Leon. With so few cards available, most of us don't try to collect them.

[slidekellyslide]

I imagine the red border Colgan set is nearly impossible. Anyone ever seen another red border Unglaub/Lincoln?

[prestigecollectibles]

As someone that deals with Japanese cards, I run into this all the time. I find issues that are extremely rare like this 1934 tour of Japan Series A set that includes Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Connie Mack, Lefty Gomez, Earl Whitehill, Charlie Berry and Japanese players Masao Date (HOFer) and Nobuo Kura. There are only three Series A sets known (including this one). One of the three resides in the Japan Hall of Fame so it will never be available to collectors. The only other set envelope known also resides in the Japan Hall of Fame. This set was sold to a collector in April and is not available.

[ullmandds]

it's frustrating when you are looking for some of these "too rare" cards. The few in existence seem buried in collections never to see the light of day.

On a good day a google search may reveal them from an old auction sale...but besides this...they are just unicorns!!

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by prestigecollectibles

As someone that deals with Japanese cards, I run into this all the time. I find issues that are extremely rare like this 1934 tour of Japan Series A set that includes Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Connie Mack, Lefty Gomez, Earl Whitehill, Charlie Berry and Japanese players Masao Date (HOFer) and Nobuo Kura. There are only three Series A sets known (including this one). One of the three resides in the Japan Hall of Fame so it will never be available to collectors. The only other set envelope known also resides in the Japan Hall of Fame. This set was sold to a collector in April and is not available.

Wow, those are cool...I'd not seen or heard of them before.

[prestigecollectibles]

Here is a Babe Ruth card from a different set issued in 1934. Only about three copies of this card are known to exist.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Leon

As a collector of scarce cards I often wonder if some cards/series are too rare for their own good? They seldom get play time on the board or in discussions.

I find that unless collectors collect the player featured in this esoteric issues, chances of getting a lot of interest in a resale is tough. With all that in mind, however, you should think about selling me that Jennings.

[clydepepper]

I paid almost as much for my third Alegeheny as I did for my first two combined. Of course, the purchases were several years apart.

[4815162342]

Great thread topic, Leon. Here's my match for your Jennings and Doyle. I think I've seen a Dooin, but I've never seen a Jacklitsch.

[honus94566]

One of my dream cards would be a T216 VE Wagner. I've seen mino's in both poses but don't think I have ever seen a VE in either pose, not sure if any have even survived. Can anybody confirm existentence of a T216 Wagner with VE back?

[GregMitch34]

1 of 1.

http://www.net54baseball.com/attachm...1&d=1415202871

[barrysloate]

The cards that are most talked about are the ones that are the least rare- the T-206's, of course. A card has to be accessible for it to be of general interest. How many discussions have we had about Four Base Hits? Maybe two over the last decade. If it's too rare to be collected, it can fall off collectors' radar.

[Al C.risafulli]

Those Alleghenys are a great example, Greg.

I have these E121 Henry Johnson Confectioners cards:



Finding one isn't such a big deal; sometimes you'll see one hiding in a group lot of E121s or W575-1s, and you can also find them on eBay pretty frequently.

I have 60 of them, and will eventually complete the set. I'm not aware of any complete sets in the hobby, though I suppose its possible, but the issue is so tough I'm not sure that a complete set will have much collector value (besides the Ruth). It's just rare enough that a lot of people don't care. I asked a prominent auction house owner once what he thought a complete set would be worth, and he said "Nothing, because you're the only guy who collects it."

-Al

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

The cards that are most talked about are the ones that are the least rare- the T-206's, of course. A card has to be accessible for it to be of general interest. How many discussions have we had about Four Base Hits? Maybe two over the last decade. If it's too rare to be collected, it can fall off collectors' radar.

The T-206 does have rarities, but I'll bet 90% of the regulars on this forum own a card rarer than the T-206 Wagner.

[chipperhank44]

Through experience I've found that anytime you find yourself having to explain how rare a card is (or even what the card is) to a potential buyer, you're in a bad position and your card is too rare for its own good.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by barrysloate

The cards that are most talked about are the ones that are the least rare- the T-206's, of course. A card has to be accessible for it to be of general interest. How many discussions have we had about Four Base Hits? Maybe two over the last decade. If it's too rare to be collected, it can fall off collectors' radar.

Totally agree...I am "talking" less and less on this forum(much to the delight of many I'm sure!)...mainly because I have shifted my focus to rarer cards the last few years!

[philliesphan]

When cards are so rare -- who can you really "talk" about with them?

Some collectors don't like to disclose the rarities they have (particularly on a public forum), as it exposes them to risk or relentless trade requests. But beyond that, there's the show-n-tell, and the "Wanting to Buy" posts, but there's not much else in terms of novel insight that can be brought to the hobby.

For example, in the last fifteen years, I think total transacted volume of Lummis Peanut Butter singles is less than five:

(This example is not mine -- show for reference):

[bcbgcbrcb]

I'm a very big believer that some cards are too rare for their own good. For years, I specialized in that kind of stuff and lost money when it came time to resell more times than not because there was such a small market for my items.

[h2oya311]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

I'm a very big believer that some cards are too rare for their own good. For years, I specialized in that kind of stuff and lost money when it came time to resell more times than not because there was such a small market for my items.

+1

Maybe people don't think something is rare because you and I (and many others on this board) have shown off our cards in the past. I have a few cards I've searched for and could not find over the past decade and finally landed. When it comes time for me to sell, despite the rarity, someone will think to "I know I've seen that card before, so it must not be that rare!" And I'll take a beating.

Oh well. I know a few people on this board (at the very least) can appreciate some of the rarities in my collection. I certainly enjoy seeing theirs!!

[Bored5000]

Originally Posted by philliesphan

When cards are so rare -- who can you really "talk" about with them?

Some collectors don't like to disclose the rarities they have (particularly on a public forum), as it exposes them to risk or relentless trade requests. But beyond that, there's the show-n-tell, and the "Wanting to Buy" posts, but there's not much else in terms of novel insight that can be brought to the hobby.

For example, in the last fifteen years, I think total transacted volume of Lummis Peanut Butter singles is less than five:

(This example is not mine -- show for reference):

I was shocked to see there was a Lummis Peanut Butter card that sold in an eBay auction a few months ago. I missed the auction as it was happening, but noticed it in the completed sales category.

Being a Phillies fan, it surprises me how cheap the Father and Son Shoes cards sell compared to their rarity. I know there isn't much star power in the set, but four Father and Son cards in a group averaged just $155 each including the Buyer's Premium at Heritage this past summer.

[bnorth]

Not vintage but I have a few hundred only known 89 & 90 Score wrong back error pairs from the junk era. I have a ton of people that want to buy them. They only want to pay what similar year Topps wrong back error pairs sell for and there are insane amounts of them out there.

[drcy]

I know of a dealer who had an 1800s 'cloth tintype,' a tintype on a swatch of cloth instead of metal. The only one I've ever seen. I'd read they existed so knew what it was when he sent me a scan and described it, but had never before seen one. He had troubles selling it for a fair price because buyers had no clue what it was. I recommended if he didn't get a fair price to donate it to a museum.

[TaxMechanick]

Expand it to other than cards as well.....That's the story of my life....that's what I collect and deal in...items too rare for their own good because they either do not have or have limited comps to determine a set market value!

Glenn

[darwinbulldog]

What do you suppose accounts for the prices of T231 cards (which do not suffer from being too rare) compared to other extreme rarities? Is it just Burdick's approval?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

What do you suppose accounts for the prices of T231 cards (which do not suffer from being too rare) compared to other extreme rarities? Is it just Burdick's approval?

Being a cataloged set adds a lot to the value, imo. Of course I am biased .....but if either of the 2 known (physical) specimens were sold it's really a crap shoot as to what they would sell for. I think there is a great chance I wouldn't recoup what I have into it. That's ok as I didn't get it for resale I got it to be able to complete the T cards.

[steve B]

With most collectibles there's stuff that's too rare for its own good. It's not as bad in fields where nearly every item is unique like very old furniture. But for anything that was sort of mass produced being really rare is something that usually holds down the price.

Some of that is the uncataloged stuff being a bit of a question mark to most collectors. If it's not cataloged, is it real? Is it actually rare? Or is it simply a somewhat hard to find thing that isn't really recognized? Look at how many cataloged items people post questions about. if there weren't places like this the uncataloged stuff would be even more of a mystery.

Another thing is that a lot of collectors want to "complete" something. And the impression of non-collectors is even more geared towards "completion" A friend of mine that I was showing cards to asked how many sets I'd completed. When I told him I'd only completed a few modern sets he said "Oh, so it's not that good of a collection then?" That required more explaining than he had patience for.
With really rare stuff "completing" any set is something that only happens with a lot of luck, a lot of effort or a lot of money. Usually it takes all three.

I've been involved with other hobbies where nearly all the items are more rare than a Wagner. Fortunately for me they're not popular collecting fields. One has gotten more expensive than I can handle, the other takes more time but has prices that are extremely variable.

For something to get really valuable I think it needs to have three things going for it.

"Rare" but not so rare only a handful of people can imagine they have a chance of findng one.
A really popular subject
A really great backstory.

The Wagner
The Plank
The upside down airplane stamp

And to a lesser degree
The Doyle
The 52 Mantle.

All have that going for them.

Consider, the 52 Mantle is twice as common as all but two other 52 high numbers. But costs a lot more.

The Doyle is a bit of a rule breaker. Usually I'd say it's too rare. But if you figure that everyone who can afford a Wagner needs the Doyle to complete the set that makes more sense. Of course, it should be more expensive, but the subject and backstory aren't quite as good as the others.

Personally I really like the very rare stuff. It's more fun to own and for someone with a small budget getting it requires a lot of both luck and knowledge. The rare stuff is like a big game hunters trophies in a way.


Steve B

[rhettyeakley]

Everything that has been said is true regarding cards that are too rare for their own good.

Here is a set of cards that I found pasted into a scrapbook dating to 1939 with other common gum cards. I have only ever seen one other grouping of these (ever) and a single or two over the years...I left one (unsoaked) on the scrapbook paper as a bit of provenance...




IMO they are some the best looking cards of the 1930's but who in the world would know what they were if I showed them to anyone?

[EvilKing00]

Originally Posted by prestigecollectibles

Here is a Babe Ruth card from a different set issued in 1934. Only about three copies of this card are known to exist.

Thats awesome

[kamikidEFFL]

Great topic. I wish I had something to add but I don't. But def enjoy reading

[Sean]

Originally Posted by kamikidEFFL

Great topic. I wish I had something to add but I don't. But def enjoy reading

Jesse, I know just how you feel. I collect T206, which may be valuable but are certainly not rare. But it's fun to see these cards that I've never even heard of before.

[icollectDCsports]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

Everything that has been said is true regarding cards that are too rare for their own good.

Here is a set of cards that I found pasted into a scrapbook dating to 1939 with other common gum cards. I have only ever seen one other grouping of these (ever) and a single or two over the years...I left one (unsoaked) on the scrapbook paper as a bit of provenance...



IMO they are some the best looking cards of the 1930's but who in the world would know what they were if I showed them to anyone?

Wow. Those are very cool. Especially love seeing so many Nats.

[Orioles1954]

I've heard Bill Huggins say on several occasions, "the only thing rarer than that item is a buyer for it."

[Exhibitman]

Well, we're conflating concepts here.

I read Leon's OP as asking whether there are cards that are so scarce that they become obscure, not generally discussed in the hobby. I think that's true to some extent but also understandable. If a card is newly discovered there will be a flurry of discussion about it, the card will land in someone's collection, and there won't be anything left to say unless/until it surfaces again or someone finds another. What else is there to say?

Value is different, and in my view less a function of rarity than marketing. There is a great deal of ballyhoo in getting a card out there to create a demand for it. We collectors live on envy and that requires putting an item in the public eye to make it desirable, as well as there being a sufficient number of them to build to a critical mass of interest. Take the Baltimore News Ruth cards. Not very attractive, rather obscure, rare, super player. So why is it a six-figure card? Because they were marketed brilliantly in major auctions with tons of hype and advertising about them every time and there were enough of them out there to repeat the hype cycle several times. Had there been only one example, I don't think we would have the same pricing structure. And even so, the price of the card is a fraction of what a T206 Wagner costs and is roughly comparable to what you would have to pay to get a really crisp 1952 Mantle. The Wagner has the story and the legendary hype as being the key rarity from the key set of the prewar era, while the Mantle is the key card in the key set from the main company of the postwar era, even though multiple versions are in every major auction.

[MMarvelli]

I can not believe how reasonable this was not too long ago...

H-unc Father & Sons Newsome, Skeeter (F+B cropped).jpg

I probably couldnt recoup what I spent for this many years ago.

T216-Virginia Extra Bescher, Bob (F+B).jpg

Being rare only counts if someone wants it. I tend to be a knucklehead who wants what not many other people want but somehow they still arent that reasonable.

[buymycards]

Hi Mark and Leon, I am envious of your VE's. Mark, yours is marked "thin paper". Are all VE's on thin paper or are there also cardboard versions? Leon, would you mind checking yours and let me know if they are thick or thin?

Thank you both for posting them.

Rick

[Leon]

Originally Posted by buymycards

Hi Mark and Leon, I am envious of your VE's. Mark, yours is marked "thin paper". Are all VE's on thin paper or are there also cardboard versions? Leon, would you mind checking yours and let me know if they are thick or thin?

Thank you both for posting them.

Rick

All I have and have ever seen (maybe 15-20) have been on thin paper. I believe that is the only way they came.

and here are 3 cards I still can't find much on. I call them Reds team issue but they are real cards on real stock......anyone seen any?

[Danny Smith]

Damn Mello Mints. I don't know who in their right mind would collect those!

Originally Posted by 4815162342

Great thread topic, Leon. Here's my match for your Jennings and Doyle. I think I've seen a Dooin, but I've never seen a Jacklitsch.

[ls7plus]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Well, we're conflating concepts here.

I read Leon's OP as asking whether there are cards that are so scarce that they become obscure, not generally discussed in the hobby. I think that's true to some extent but also understandable. If a card is newly discovered there will be a flurry of discussion about it, the card will land in someone's collection, and there won't be anything left to say unless/until it surfaces again or someone finds another. What else is there to say?

Value is different, and in my view less a function of rarity than marketing. There is a great deal of ballyhoo in getting a card out there to create a demand for it. We collectors live on envy and that requires putting an item in the public eye to make it desirable, as well as there being a sufficient number of them to build to a critical mass of interest. Take the Baltimore News Ruth cards. Not very attractive, rather obscure, rare, super player. So why is it a six-figure card? Because they were marketed brilliantly in major auctions with tons of hype and advertising about them every time and there were enough of them out there to repeat the hype cycle several times. Had there been only one example, I don't think we would have the same pricing structure. And even so, the price of the card is a fraction of what a T206 Wagner costs and is roughly comparable to what you would have to pay to get a really crisp 1952 Mantle. The Wagner has the story and the legendary hype as being the key rarity from the key set of the prewar era, while the Mantle is the key card in the key set from the main company of the postwar era, even though multiple versions are in every major auction.

I have the utmost respect for Adam's opinions, but in my view, the 1914 Baltimore News Ruth's marketing followed the fact that it is an extremely rare (11? 12? 13?) and significant card of the player most consider the best who ever lived. The latter factors facilitated the marketing and created the value. The marketing did not create tremendous value, although it certainly maximized it. I would not be surprised (and in fact would expect that its value will surpass the T206 Wagner, despite the popularity of T206, due to the Baltimore News' far greater rarity, and that, IMHO, it is at least as significant a card.

Time will tell, but it would not surprise me if the Babe approached or exceeded eight figures in value in my lifetime.

Best regards,

Larry

[Bicem]

I'm more than happy to take all the good looking cards that are too rare to be valuable.

[Bicem]

Originally Posted by ls7plus

I have the utmost respect for Adam's opinions, but in my view, the 1914 Baltimore News Ruth's marketing followed the fact that it is an extremely rare (11? 12? 13?) and significant card of the player most consider the best who ever lived. The latter factors facilitated the marketing and created the value. The marketing did not create tremendous value, although it certainly maximized it. I would not be surprised (and in fact would expect that its value will surpass the T206 Wagner, despite the popularity of T206, due to the Baltimore News' far greater rarity, and that, IMHO, it is at least as significant a card.

Agreed 100%, well, except the part about respecting Adam's opinions.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

The T-206 does have rarities, but I'll bet 90% of the regulars on this forum own a card rarer than the T-206 Wagner.

I had a Mino Wagner, which is even rarer than his T206.

[rman444]

Originally Posted by Runscott

I had a Mino Wagner, which is even rarer than his T206.

There are 10 T206 Wagners for every Mino Wagner throwing pose. As for the Mino Wagner batting pose, I believe there is only one example known to exist.

[marvymelvin]

Originally Posted by ls7plus

I have the utmost respect for Adam's opinions, but in my view, the 1914 Baltimore News Ruth's marketing followed the fact that it is an extremely rare (11? 12? 13?) and significant card of the player most consider the best who ever lived. The latter factors facilitated the marketing and created the value. The marketing did not create tremendous value, although it certainly maximized it. I would not be surprised (and in fact would expect that its value will surpass the T206 Wagner, despite the popularity of T206, due to the Baltimore News' far greater rarity, and that, IMHO, it is at least as significant a card.

Time will tell, but it would not surprise me if the Babe approached or exceeded eight figures in value in my lifetime.

Best regards,

Larry

Forgive my naivety or rather my misunderstanding, but wouldn't "8" figures be 10,000,000 dollars??? I am not quite sure that the card in question or any sports card for that matter would ever reach that value??

[Sean]

Originally Posted by marvymelvin

Forgive my naivety or rather my misunderstanding, but wouldn't "8" figures be 10,000,000 dollars??? I am not quite sure that the card in question or any sports card for that matter would ever reach that value??

Maybe he expects to live for a really long time.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Leon

As a collector of scarce cards I often wonder if some cards/series are too rare for their own good? They seldom get play time on the board or in discussions.

Hi Leon,

First of all, this is a really interesting topic, I think. I've never considered whether super scarcity could potentially be a negative, but here's where I come down on the topic at hand after a little reflection.

I think I'm closer to the "no" side on this issue. I don't think there's anything inherently bad about the existence of some cards with incredibly low populations. While it's true that the super scare cards may sit permanently in somebody's private collection, and never see the light of day, that doesn't necessarily preclude those cards from being discussed here, or on any hobby-oriented website.

In a way, there's something romantic about cards that are so scarce that the chance of ever seeing one in person, let along owning a copy, are slim to none. Obviously, I don't mean romantic in the most commonly used sense of the word. But I don't think there's anything wrong with pining for that white whale card that would take one's collection to a level that was previously considered unattainable. Suffice it to say that some of the greatest collections ever assembled are owned by current Net 54 members. I can completely understand the reluctance these people might have to discuss their most valuable pieces. Not everything has to be on display for the world to see. I've been told in no certain terms that some of the pieces I don't know about would blow my mind. And, I'm ok with not knowing. Who knows, maybe some point down the road, many years from now, perhaps one of these collectors will contact me to show me some of their most prized possessions. If I will have earned their trust, then I will be happily browse through whatever they have to offer.

Leon, I would also think some of these rarer pieces would fuel collectors like yourself. I'll own some really nice cards in my life, but I don't know how many truly rare pieces my collection will ever include. However, for an advanced collector such as yourself, would these pieces drive you more? I would expect pursuing that kind of a card would be an entirely different exercise, one that required the help from other friends and contacts within the hobby. Maybe I'm off base here, but I would expect the thrill of the hunt for that rare card would be pretty exhilarating.

Originally Posted by barrysloate

The cards that are most talked about are the ones that are the least rare- the T-206's, of course. A card has to be accessible for it to be of general interest. How many discussions have we had about Four Base Hits? Maybe two over the last decade. If it's too rare to be collected, it can fall off collectors' radar.

Barry, I cannot speak for anybody else on the forum, but I can say that if I'm not talking about those rarer cards, it's due to a lack of knowledge. I think I just don't know they exist. I would certainly be game for discussing anything rare. I'm always willing to learn!

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

Hi Leon,

First of all, this is a really interesting topic, I think. I've never considered whether super scarcity could potentially be a negative, but here's where I come down on the topic at hand after a little reflection.

I think I'm closer to the "no" side on this issue. I don't think there's anything inherently bad about the existence of some cards with incredibly low populations. While it's true that the super scare cards may sit permanently in somebody's private collection, and never see the light of day, that doesn't necessarily preclude those cards from being discussed here, or on any hobby-oriented website.

In a way, there's something romantic about cards that are so scarce that the chance of ever seeing one in person, let along owning a copy, are slim to none. Obviously, I don't mean romantic in the most commonly used sense of the word. But I don't think there's anything wrong with pining for that white whale card that would take one's collection to a level that was previously considered unattainable. Suffice it to say that some of the greatest collections ever assembled are owned by current Net 54 members. I can completely understand the reluctance these people might have to discuss their most valuable pieces. Not everything has to be on display for the world to see. I've been told in no certain terms that some of the pieces I don't know about would blow my mind. And, I'm ok with not knowing. Who knows, maybe some point down the road, many years from now, perhaps one of these collectors will contact me to show me some of their most prized possessions. If I will have earned their trust, then I will be happily browse through whatever they have to offer.

Leon, I would also think some of these rarer pieces would fuel collectors like yourself. I'll own some really nice cards in my life, but I don't know how many truly rare pieces my collection will ever include. However, for an advanced collector such as yourself, would these pieces drive you more? I would expect pursuing that kind of a card would be an entirely different exercise, one that required the help from other friends and contacts within the hobby. Maybe I'm off base here, but I would expect the thrill of the hunt for that rare card would be pretty exhilarating.



Barry, I cannot speak for anybody else on the forum, but I can say that if I'm not talking about those rarer cards, it's due to a lack of knowledge. I think I just don't know they exist. I would certainly be game for discussing anything rare. I'm always willing to learn!

The fact is...cards like the uber rare oj anson...the allegheny's...the T216 VE's...the T206 doyle variation...don't get discussed much. They routinely appear on "10 best lists" and lists of most desirable cards by more advanced collectors due to their rarity.

But what is there to talk about? With 1 or 2 in existence...we don't know much of anything about them? If there were only 1 or 2 T206 ghosts out there...would there be numerous threads devoted to them...NO WAY!

If 1 T206 set were ever produced as a prototype that never went into production...would it be the focus of this board...NO WAY!

[jason.1969]

Will offer my two cents, recognizing I have no rarities and that my "Novembet Pickup" of a 1971 Steve Garvey in VG may by itself disqualify me from this forum...

Rarity is all about supply...that's it. But price, buzz, interest, etc., are all about demand. For something like the T206 Wagner, perhaps a million people would love to have that card for every one that exists. That's a great ratio. But for some of the rarest cards, most people and even collectors don't even know about them, let alone think they want one. Maybe there's only a ten to one ratio of interest to supply.

[I Only Smoke 4 the Cards]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

The fact is...cards like the uber rare oj anson...the allegheny's...the T216 VE's...the T206 doyle variation...don't get discussed much. They routinely appear on "10 best lists" and lists of most desirable cards by more advanced collectors due to their rarity.

But what is there to talk about? With 1 or 2 in existence...we don't know much of anything about them? If there were only 1 or 2 T206 ghosts out there...would there be numerous threads devoted to them...NO WAY!

If 1 T206 set were ever produced as a prototype that never went into production...would it be the focus of this board...NO WAY!

I agree with you on this one. Learning about rare cards is interesting but there is only so much to discuss. The convo runs short when 1 collector discusses a card nobody else has.

[clydepepper]

There is a feeling that comes from having a true 1-of-1 - knowing that no one else has exactly what you have - and that feeling is priceless. I know that there are a few members who own Alegehenys and that's the feeling I'm talking about.

I probably will never be able to purchase another one, but what I have is always 'emitting' that 'golden fleese' vibe.

I occasionally purchase modern 1/1 cards for the same reason, though it is different when it's 'artificially rare'.