Winston and JSA

[packs]

I've heard the student athletes should get paid argument a lot lately. How do you guys feel about the fact that these student athletes, regardless of their future NFL earning abilities, attend schools that cost as much as $40,000 a year for no cost? If your average student is spending $160,000 over 4 years at these schools and you're paying nothing, isn't that enough of a gift?

Not all of these players are NFL prospects, but they receive the benefit of a cost free education. In my opinion if these guys want to start getting paid, they can start paying tuition and their scholarships should go to someone else.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by packs

I've heard the student athletes should get paid argument a lot lately. How do you guys feel about the fact that these student athletes, regardless of their future NFL earning abilities, attend schools that cost as much as $40,000 a year for no cost? If your average student is spending $160,000 over 4 years at these schools and you're paying nothing, isn't that enough of a gift?

Not all of these players are NFL prospects, but they receive the benefit of a cost free education. In my opinion if these guys want to start getting paid, they can start paying tuition and their scholarships should go to someone else.

and a BIG +1

[steve B]

Originally Posted by packs

I've heard the student athletes should get paid argument a lot lately. How do you guys feel about the fact that these student athletes, regardless of their future NFL earning abilities, attend schools that cost as much as $40,000 a year for no cost? If your average student is spending $160,000 over 4 years at these schools and you're paying nothing, isn't that enough of a gift?

Not all of these players are NFL prospects, but they receive the benefit of a cost free education. In my opinion if these guys want to start getting paid, they can start paying tuition and their scholarships should go to someone else.

So to extend that line of thinking, if a college student gets a full academic scholarship they shouldn't be allowed a part time job because they're getting the college for free? Or a student with a full scholarship based on need can't have a job to pay for books meals etc?

The big schools make money from the football program, so the upper divisions really are minor leagues of sorts.

Or more inline with our collecting interests - West Point used to make a set of cards of the football team every year. Usually small, like 9 cards, maybe a few more. Any proceeds went to charity. They had to stop when the NCAA ruled that they couldn't use the players images without paying them, and that the players couldn't be paid. So for a rule that really only has meaning for a handful of players in big programs everyone lost - 9 guys who would never even have a shot at being drafted couldn't have a card, the fans couldn't get them, and the charity was shut out. (Maybe not the charity, I think the donation is still done, but the added publicity was lost)
An odd situation since everyone there is essentially on scholarship, and sort of technically employed, with a mostly guaranteed job after graduation.

Btw - those are pretty tough sets. I don't recall exactly, but they were stadium only, and perhaps one per ticket.

Steve B

[packs]

You are misreading what I'm saying. These athletes want to get paid to play football. But they are already being paid to play football: they receive a full ride scholarship so they can attend the college and play football.

Bottom line for me: don't look a gift horse in the mouth. You are receiving a free education at a top flight school which your athleticism has allowed you to experience. So you either accept that you've been given a free education or you can demand to be paid and have your scholarship be taken away.

And then when your NFL career doesn't pan out, like it won't for the majority of these guys, you can look forward to crushing student debt like everyone else. At that point you'd probably wish you could go back in time and accept your free ride for what it was.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by packs

You are misreading what I'm saying. These athletes want to get paid to play football. But they are already being paid to play football: they receive a full ride scholarship so they can attend the college and play football.

If a student on academic scholarship started to demand to be paid for studying, then yes, take that ungrateful student's scholarship away and let some benefactor step in to pay him to study.

Bottom line for me: don't look a gift horse in the mouth. You are receiving a free education at a top flight school which your athleticism has allowed you to experience. So you either accept that you've been given a free education or you can demand to be paid and have your scholarship be taken away.

And then when your NFL career doesn't pan out, like it won't for the majority of these guys, you can look forward to crushing student debt like everyone else. At that point you'd probably wish you could go back in time and accept your free ride for what it was.

Those are good points, but I think the majority of college athletes realize that they aren't going pro. We are confusing Winston and Manziel with guys that are barely getting by, and we are confusing schools like USC and Alabama with the smaller ones where virtually no one is first round draft choice material.

Not sure what the affect of paying them would have - it might suck all remaining talent out of the small schools, rendering their football programs useless. On the other hand, paying them AND allowing them to sign autographs or do anything else they want for money, might provide a new source of revenue for smaller schools - they might be able to draw some decent players who could be a well-paid 'face' for the football team, at least locally.

[packs]

True. I just can't help but think the education aspect is forgotten. A free education is more valuable over a lifetime than whatever payment you're going to get for playing 4 years of college football. Just because more players don't take their education seriously doesn't mean that they aren't receiving something in return for playing football. If things were to shift towards compensation I'd like to at least see some strict academic guidelines fulfilled in order for you to qualify. You are at a college after all.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by packs

True. I just can't help but think the education aspect is forgotten. A free education is more valuable over a lifetime than whatever payment you're going to get for playing 4 years of college football. Just because more players don't take their education seriously doesn't mean that they aren't receiving something in return for playing football. If things were to shift towards compensation I'd like to at least see some strict academic guidelines fulfilled in order for you to qualify. You are at a college after all.

Yes, but there are plenty of non-athletes who are in college who do not appreciate the education they have the opportunity to get. You can't make people appreciate it, and there are plenty of football players who DO appreciate it - there are probably as many 'good' stories as 'bad'.

The "strict academic guidelines" is never going to happen. I taught football players at Texas A&M who were dumber than a stick - nice guys, but they really weren't intelligent enough to be in college. The best they could hope for was to get four years of 'growing up' in a structured environment, which is a great thing, along with a few bits of education that they would have missed if they had been somewhere else. You learn from being in school, even if you try not to. Same for life - old people with more years 'put in' in life have learned things just from existing longer than young people. Most young people don't respect or understand that.

[earlywynnfan]

I can totally see both sides of the "pay college athletes" arguments. What I cannot get out of my head is that college FB player last year who was on the cover of the Madden video game, yet couldn't afford to buy the game. There is NO WAY you can convince me that something isn't wrong there.

Ken

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by steve B

So to extend that line of thinking, if a college student gets a full academic scholarship they shouldn't be allowed a part time job because they're getting the college for free? Or a student with a full scholarship based on need can't have a job to pay for books meals etc?

The big schools make money from the football program, so the upper divisions really are minor leagues of sorts.

Steve, when I was in the MBA program, making a pittance as a TA, I tried to supplement that income by refereeing basketball. When the school realized I had two jobs, they told me I could no longer be a ref. That was in 1981. So what you are describing is already in place, or was. The rules are strictly enforced for any student who is NOT part of the minor league football program

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Steve, when I was in the MBA program, making a pittance as a TA, I tried to supplement that income by refereeing basketball. When the school realized I had two jobs, they told me I could no longer be a ref. That was in 1981. So what you are describing is already in place, or was. The rules are strictly enforced for any student who is NOT part of the minor league football program

I was not aware of that.

I don't think it's right, as long as the job performance didn't suffer. But if the rule is known and applied evenly that seems fair. I'm guessing it wasn't explained to you at all since you seem like a guy who'd follow the rules. (Of course, we were all different people in college than we are now )

I've been mulling over the whole autos/dealer/JSA thing, and I really haven't quite decided what I think.

I do think Winston should have known better. But how many college football players with real talent listen to those boring rules things. Especially if they have been allowed too much leeway in HS.

The dealer really should have known better. If he's got a connection, and basically messes up the kids career to make a few bucks right now he's both wrong and not at all bright. What would that connection be worth if the player became a star at the pro level? Of course that's tempered by Winston doing a fine job of screwing up all on his own.
And if it's not a connection, then the person that hasn't been mentioned yet is whoever handles Winstons business matters or advises him.

Very Mixed feelings about JSA. On the one hand as others have said they were doing what they do. Assuming they didn't seek out someone to get a bunch of autos from someone who isn't supposed to sign for pay I'm not sure about where I think their responsibility ends. Ultimately, I think at least a call to the submitter to let him know he's putting himself and the player in a bad position would be appropriate.
On the other hand, the autographed stuff is sort of like unlicensed cards. And I'm pretty sure none of the legit TPGs will grade those. I wonder if I had one signed - would they reject it because the object that's signed is unlicensed?

I don't know enough about it to know if the act of signing itself is illegal. I don't think the NCAA rules are quite the same as laws. But if it was done somewhere that has a law against getting a college player to risk elegibility that might be enough to make it illegal. ----Interesting, illegal to host a legal activity.........I'm assuming that if for instance Winston himself signed 900 photos and put them away until after his college career that would be ok. Or if he did the signing and the photos weren't to be sold until after his elegibility? Pretty narrow window between that and the draft, but it might make sense.

Steve B

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by steve B

I was not aware of that.

I don't think it's right, as long as the job performance didn't suffer. But if the rule is known and applied evenly that seems fair. I'm guessing it wasn't explained to you at all since you seem like a guy who'd follow the rules. (Of course, we were all different people in college than we are now )

I have always, for the most part, been a 'rules follower'. I think it's what holds society together. If you want to be part of a society, you follow the rules that are 'reasonable' or you do something to change them. In that instance the technical rule was 'no university job' if you have an assistantship. So I became a bartender.

Originally Posted by steve B

Ultimately, I think at least a call to the submitter to let him know he's putting himself and the player in a bad position would be appropriate.

At the very least, in my opinion. It's just ethical.

Originally Posted by steve B

I don't know enough about it to know if the act of signing itself is illegal. I don't think the NCAA rules are quite the same as laws. But if it was done somewhere that has a law against getting a college player to risk elegibility that might be enough to make it illegal. ----Interesting, illegal to host a legal activity.........I'm assuming that if for instance Winston himself signed 900 photos and put them away until after his college career that would be ok. Or if he did the signing and the photos weren't to be sold until after his elegibility? Pretty narrow window between that and the draft, but it might make sense.

Steve B

It's actually very clear - he can't sign for profit, or for others to profit. Certainly, signing 900 items would be suspicious. And as soon as the dealer sells one, Winston becomes guilty.

Not sure about squirreling them away for after eligibility ends. Very interesting loophole, as there could be a deal between Winston, the dealer and JSA stating that nothing gets sold until that point.

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by packs

I've heard the student athletes should get paid argument a lot lately. How do you guys feel about the fact that these student athletes, regardless of their future NFL earning abilities, attend schools that cost as much as $40,000 a year for no cost? If your average student is spending $160,000 over 4 years at these schools and you're paying nothing, isn't that enough of a gift?

Not all of these players are NFL prospects, but they receive the benefit of a cost free education. In my opinion if these guys want to start getting paid, they can start paying tuition and their scholarships should go to someone else.

Meant to post earlier but tied up at work. This argument drives me crazy... basically saying-- you already get this, so you can't have anything else, regardless of whether you're worth it or not. Tim Tebow by some accounts was worth over $1B to the university, NCAA and CBS/etc. He can't see any of that??? even if he's just signing his own name???? or appearing at a football camp or speaking function???? Are you kidding???

Major college sports has by far the largest disparity in what they're (star athletes) worth and what they get. The old, truly amature Olympics may have come close, but can't think of anything in today's sports world worse than major college football and college hoops.

Separately, the time they put in year round is probably worth close to, maybe even more than that $40K scholarship money (or maybe $10K-$15K at a public school) if they were to be working a normal job. I went to a smallish IAA school (CP SLO) and kicked around the idea of trying to walk on for my sophomore year. As it was, I was a Mech Eng student, taking 16-18 units, and just couldn't bring myself to get up each morning in the winter for 6am workouts, just to have a shot to try out in the Spring. It's crazy, and I have total respect for guys that can do it. 6am work outs, Spring ball, summer ball/work outs, double days, the season... then start right back over again.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by itjclarke

Major college sports has by far the largest disparity in what they're (star athletes) worth and what they get. The old, truly amature Olympics may have come close, but can't think of anything in today's sports world worse than major college football and college hoops.

The Amateur version of the Olympics that I grew up with, was great for fans, but not for the athletes. There was a lot going on in the background that the fans were unaware of - the best U.S. athletes were dirt poor and if they said anything about it, they were banned from participating in competitions. It was a horrible situation for them. It eventually crumbled and the fans cried foul, but it had to happen. I do miss real boxing, real wrestling and real basketball, the way Naismith intended it be played, but all of that is gone. The ironic thing is how crooked things were in the old amateur Olympics. What memories!

Perhaps we are witnessing the same transition with NCAA football?

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by Runscott

The Amateur version of the Olympics that I grew up with, was great for fans, but not for the athletes. There was a lot going on in the background that the fans were unaware of - the best U.S. athletes were dirt poor and if they said anything about it, they were banned from participating in competitions. It was a horrible situation for them. It eventually crumbled and the fans cried foul, but it had to happen. I do miss real boxing, real wrestling and real basketball, the way Naismith intended it be played, but all of that is gone. The ironic thing is how crooked things were in the old amateur Olympics. What memories!

Perhaps we are witnessing the same transition with NCAA football?

Ahhh, I've got a terrible misspelling frozen in time!

Otherwise, I do think we're seeing a transition in NCAA and think change will be in large part driven by public pressure. Things like the O'Bannon case and the Northwestern team are bringing unprecedented attention.. and no matter how you feel about the Northwestern players' arguments, it's undeniable how much leverage these guys carry. Can you imagine how much bargaining power a team choosing NOT to take the field or court just before a national championship game?? How about if they're doing so for a paralyzed teammate who does not have lifetime medical benefits? I think a network (or conference) would pay them $10M on the spot if it could be done secretly. Not saying I hope this happens, but something's gotta change and however it's done, it needs to be done.

Some ideas to throw up on the wall-- players have rights to their names for martketing, advertising/% of jersey sales/autograph sales and this money can be held in a trust... they get 100% if they graduate, and lesser % for each year they leave early... for players kicked out due to poor conduct, maybe money can be donated to scholarship funds of local educational programs?? Perhaps a cap can be set for 1A schools, and money shared amongst players, in a slotted fashion based on playing time... and the truly mega star players would get their extra via endorsements, signings, etc.

I wrote a paper in college on this topic, and remember some of the numbers cited at that time (mid-nineties using late eighties sources). There were references about major bowl games bringing $500K-$600K for teams, etc... which is laughable by today's standards. Not every school is making huge money on their own, but the major conferences are cleaning up... between deals with ESPN/CBS/ABC, the conference cable networks, ticket/merchendise/consession sales, BCS bowl earnings... there is a lot of loot to split up. The fact conference cronies, school ADs, bowl administrators are absolutely cleaning up makes me semi sick when seeing how little most of these players have, and will have long term.

Also- I see NO REASON why a football player need be forced to go to school to pursue his dream. Even 1 and done in basketball seems silly. I think baseball has it best, eligable in HS and committed for 3 years if you enroll in a 4 year school.

[chaddurbin]

again, going back to the original issue with JSA...they didn't have to do anything other than judge whether the sigs r authentic or not.

if the local university head basketball coach come to our restaurant with a couple of his student players and pay for their meals...i'm cool with it. i'm glad they chose our establishment, i don't consider that unethical and i'm not going to dial up the compliance dept of the NCAA to report the infraction. i'm fine with my moral compass, i sleep very well at night.

[swarmee]

One, the high school player has no effective value. He is just a college recruit. It isn't until he gets to college and proves himself that he becomes an NFL prospect, where there is a shot to get paid.
The NCAA does not just cover CFB and MBB; it covers over 40 amateur sports. The money the schools take in on football cover the expenses (mostly) of the other 15-39 sports that a college plays. Remove the income stream from football, and 10 sports at some schools would be immediately shuttered, leading many with scholarships to have no team to play for. You saw this 10 years ago when colleges were *finally* becoming compliant with the Title IX regs that were published in the 1970s.
As well, allowing any college player to sign autographs for money now becomes a Boone Pickens/Nike/Under Armour situation. Oklahoma State, Oregon, and Maryland have the most powerful boosters with deep pockets, and promising a high school player that he'll be able to sign $100K autographs while in college at any of these schools makes it impossible to even attempt a leveled playing field for recruiting.

I think the NCAA will fail/be replaced for many of these reasons, but IMO the goals of the student-athlete and amateur athletics is sound. If the NFL had the balls to start up their own minor leagues and pay HS players $20-30K to play in front of empty stadiums, then we wouldn't be having this discussion. There would be a place for non-college students to play in the US without having to pretend to be a student, but then, they wouldn't be "getting what they deserve" either. There's no demand for a minor league NFL, but that's the only real way to fix college football. I just think that you take these kids out of the college they're playing for, and their football playing ability below the NFL has very little value. We know that's true for minor league baseball players, where many have to live on $20K for a season.

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by swarmee

One, the high school player has no effective value. He is just a college recruit. It isn't until he gets to college and proves himself that he becomes an NFL prospect, where there is a shot to get paid.
The NCAA does not just cover CFB and MBB; it covers over 40 amateur sports. The money the schools take in on football cover the expenses (mostly) of the other 15-39 sports that a college plays. Remove the income stream from football, and 10 sports at some schools would be immediately shuttered, leading many with scholarships to have no team to play for. You saw this 10 years ago when colleges were *finally* becoming compliant with the Title IX regs that were published in the 1970s.
As well, allowing any college player to sign autographs for money now becomes a Boone Pickens/Nike/Under Armour situation. Oklahoma State, Oregon, and Maryland have the most powerful boosters with deep pockets, and promising a high school player that he'll be able to sign $100K autographs while in college at any of these schools makes it impossible to even attempt a leveled playing field for recruiting.

I think the NCAA will fail/be replaced for many of these reasons, but IMO the goals of the student-athlete and amateur athletics is sound. If the NFL had the balls to start up their own minor leagues and pay HS players $20-30K to play in front of empty stadiums, then we wouldn't be having this discussion. There would be a place for non-college students to play in the US without having to pretend to be a student, but then, they wouldn't be "getting what they deserve" either. There's no demand for a minor league NFL, but that's the only real way to fix college football. I just think that you take these kids out of the college they're playing for, and their football playing ability below the NFL has very little value. We know that's true for minor league baseball players, where many have to live on $20K for a season.

Those are really valid counter points. Sadly seems most any system, including current allows for the Nikes, Boone Pickens of the sports world to game the system. I think maybe the best they can do is cap any sort of compensation, and again hold in trust to be paid/slotted based on years at school/time played/etc.. Maybe allow revenues from good performing conferences to be allocated amongst teams and bump cap up, giving a perceived "reward" for success. Maybe you also offer rewards/incentives for highest academically performing teams. Seems you'd want to do everything you could to aid those programs. These guys (agents, some coaches, boosters) and most schools do it and get away with. Some schools are involved, and some just turn a blind eye to powerful boosters.

I heard from a friend, who's dad was a successful head coach in the ACC, about one of the ways Cam Newton's dad Cecil was paid. Apparently Auburn had a booster that owned or had ties to a river boat casino. Cecil was instructed to go into the casino and play X game at X time (slots, whatever) and everything was rigged for him to win and walk out the door with thousands, tens of thousands. If busted, unless they're dumb and left an email or phone trail, seems the university will always have a plausible deniability for this sort of behavior.

I love Stanford's success, but even if the coach and program are clean, Stanford has about as powerful an alumni group as there is. Who's to say big time alumns don't take the Capitol Hill route and just make hand shake promises and lucrative "ins" via internships or jobs after school. Lots of motivated, top student athletes might be lured by that kind of stuff and again, school doesn't necessarily even know.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by chaddurbin

again, going back to the original issue with JSA...they didn't have to do anything other than judge whether the sigs r authentic or not.

if the local university head basketball coach come to our restaurant with a couple of his student players and pay for their meals...i'm cool with it. i'm glad they chose our establishment, i don't consider that unethical and i'm not going to dial up the compliance dept of the NCAA to report the infraction. i'm fine with my moral compass, i sleep very well at night.

Quan, morality and ethics are two different things. I'm glad you are moral.