Cooperstown 1909 - Were Gandil, Chase & Cicotte Crooked in '09?

[Paul S]

Timing is everything. As other have stated, Denton T. However, by 1909 Ross Barnes had already burned through professional baseball. He exceeded rookie limits during 1871 season; Out of baseball after 1881; Only played nine seasons, missing two of them. Check out his stats. I have this strange feeling that almost thirty years after his career ended the 1909 editions of BBWA and SABR weren't interested

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by Paul S

Timing is everything. As other have stated, Denton T. However, by 1909 Ross Barnes had already burned through professional baseball. He exceeded rookie limits during 1871 season; Out of baseball after 1871; Only played nine seasons, missing two of them. Check out his stats. I have this strange feeling that almost thirty years after his career ended the 1909 editions of BBWA and SABR weren't interested

Hi Paul,

Ah, Ross Barnes. Master of fair-foul hitting, a long extinct part of the game...even in 1909. Great batsman and 4-time hits leader. Also hit .400 or better four times.

He would get my vote, if I were alive back then and able to cast one.

Best regards,

Eric

[mattsey9]

Cap Anson would have to be in. In 1909, he had more hits than any other player in the history of the game. Further, he helped spread the game globally with his participation in a world tour of barnstormers.

[LKeeler]

Hit 'em where they ain't, Willie Keeler. 1909 was Keeler's 18th season, and he was sitting on 2,929 hits when the season concluded.

[cardsfan73]

Hoss Radbourn

309 Wins against 194 losses

502 Games started w/ 488 Complete games.

His 1884 season was insane.. 73 starts, 73 complete games and appeared in two games in relief!

[Kenny Cole]

So a question. Are we using the rules as originally implemented in 1936? The reason I ask is that there was no waiting period then (not until 1945) and there was no character, integrity or sportsmanship provision until 1945 either. Whether or not those rules are considered to be in effect makes a pretty substantial difference in who I might vote for.

[Eric72]

OK, I will be the one...

I nominate Hal Chase.

He was eventually proven to be a crooked ballplayer; however, appears on five different T206 cards...including two of the six "Super Prints." The other four are Cobb, Evers, Chance, and Matty.

To me, that speaks to his popularity. And another Hal Chase card depicts him holding a trophy. Clearly, he was an early hobby darling. The ATC had their finger on the pulse of Baseball and knew what they were doing, right?

So, in summary, he was a great ballplayer in 1909, even if he was a bit shady. My opinion is that he would have been voted in. After all, induction into the Hall is just as much a popularity contest as anything else.

Best regards,

Eric

[Mountaineer1999]

Dan Brouthers. Led league in hitting 5 times HR and RBI twice. (1880-1896), Would have led league in slugging and OPS six straight years.

Ed Delahanty. 2597 hits , lifetime .346 hitter, 1466 RBI (1888-1903)

[Peter_Spaeth]

I assume all the 300 game winners from the 19th Century. The aforementioned Radbourn, plus Keefe Nichols Welch Galvin and Clarkson. Is this thread supposed to be more than name the greatest 19th century players?

[clydepepper]

Well, Matty was 236-112 thu '09, so I'd vote for him. I guess it's easier to come up with more from the 19th Century than just the first decade of the 20th.

I would also include:

Joe McGinnity
Honus Wagnmer
Sam Thompson
A.G. Spalding


I think they had all earned at least a good ballot by then.

[h2oya311]

Originally Posted by mattsey9

Cap Anson would have to be in. In 1909, he had more hits than any other player in the history of the game. Further, he helped spread the game globally with his participation in a world tour of barnstormers.

He was certainly a great player, but proclaiming that he "helped spread the game globally" is a bit too nice. He is also credited with being one of the most racially intolerant players of the day, refusing to play exhibition games (and even major league games) versus dark-skinned players.

He was also known to have been one of the most prolific bettors on baseball, yet he is in the Hall. If you did a recast of voting today, I wouldn't be surprised if he is no longer "first ballot". But, Frank asked us what voters would have thought in 1909. The answer is yes, he's in.

[Louieman]

Originally Posted by h2oya311

He was certainly a great player, but proclaiming that he "helped spread the game globally" is a bit too nice. He is also credited with being one of the most racially intolerant players of the day, refusing to play exhibition games (and even major league games) versus dark-skinned players.

He was also known to have been one of the most prolific bettors on baseball, yet he is in the Hall. If you did a recast of voting today, I wouldn't be surprised if he is no longer "first ballot". But, Frank asked us what voters would have thought in 1909. The answer is yes, he's in.

+1

If we go by the Halls rules, 10 years in the bigs minimum, I'd have to start with some obvious ones Nap Lajoie (1896-), Honus Wagner (1897-), and Sam Crawford (1899-), though their careers were just getting started. If I can only have one pick I'll go with Wee Willie Keeler, career .340+ batting average, and 2900+ hits whose playing days ended in 1910.

Great question, I would have said Fleet Walker but that would not have happened in 1909.

[frankbmd]

The list has been updated and an attempt to clarify "rules" has been included in the original post. These of course are still subject to change on a whim of the OP.

[bigtrain]

Originally Posted by Louieman

+1

Anson was not elected until 1939, so that was actually the 4th ballot.

[bwbc917]

How about some of the pioneers: Candy Cummings, Levi Meyerle, and Bobby Mathews, and let's not forget Al Spalding who went 37-8 one season, but even more impressive was 57-5 in 1875.

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by Eric72

Hi Paul,

Ah, Ross Barnes. Master of fair-foul hitting, a long extinct part of the game...even in 1909. Great batsman and 4-time hits leader. Also hit .400 or better four times.

He would get my vote, if I were alive back then and able to cast one.

Best regards,

Eric

Eric- If you had been around back then, you would have been WAY too young to vote.