Ripped off by a James Spence lifetime guarantee

[Runscott]

2013 - 2 posts regarding your wax pack complaints
2014 - 2 posts regarding your baseball complaints
2015 - ???

Perhaps we should start a poll as to what you will rejoin us for to complain about in 2015

[joed25]

I saw your listing. I was surprised ebay let you sell that. Pretty obvious forgery.

[sbfinley]

Is there any way to prove the ball in question is actually the same one the original Spence letter documented? There was over a decade in-between the drafting of that letter and your purchase.

[bender07]

Originally Posted by sbfinley

Is there any way to prove the ball in question is actually the same one the original Spence letter documented? There was over a decade in-between the drafting of that letter and your purchase.

Agreed, is there anything tying the ball to the letter?

Also, the ball in question is clearly forged.

[Runscott]

There is a much longer thread about this over in another forum where Eric is a much more extensive poster. It might shed additional light on the matter.

Apparently Spence only reached out to Eric once Eric had gone public with this.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Apparently Spence only reached out to Eric once Eric had gone public with this.

And it's a Stengel ball. What's it gonna cost him?

It's not like it was, say, a forged 1927 Yankees ball that he once authenticated.

[khw]

if the original link was that stangel brothers or whatever that is it was posted there the 17th , and posted on here the 18th ,who knows how long it went before that though , i doubt anybody was bullied into giving the money back , would have been just as easy to say that balls fake and i never sold it , and the letter went with another baseball. whatever time he spent with jsa the company doesnt matter here , they didnt write the letter. if spence refunded it then give the guy a hand for doing the right thing and take a second from the ole bash the tpa

[chaddurbin]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

And it's a Stengel ball. What's it gonna cost him?

It's not like it was, say, a forged 1927 Yankees ball that he once authenticated.

lol...in a sad way.

[johnmh71]

I'm not trying to come to anyone's defense, but how do we know that this is the same ball that Spence wrote the COA for? Because the other dealer said so?

[khw]

Originally Posted by Runscott

There is a much longer thread about this over in another forum where Eric is a much more extensive poster. It might shed additional light on the matter.

Apparently Spence only reached out to Eric once Eric had gone public with this.

OK then that would be a different story if he tried to resolve it and he just avoided him , but a previous post brought up something i thought of as well. unless the letter had a image or marked ball there is nothing to tie the ball to the letter , almost like a auction letter . this was pre sticker , photo letter etc . like i said before in this business you take one of the chin ever so often , and if you want to buy and sell you better have some knowledge of what you are doing and not go on anybodys letter or card , i would not have bought that ball even if it had a present day jsa full letter

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by khw

OK then that would be a different story if he tried to resolve it and he just avoided him , but a previous post brought up something i thought of as well. unless the letter had a image or marked ball there is nothing to tie the ball to the letter , almost like a auction letter . this was pre sticker , photo letter etc . like i said before in this business you take one of the chin ever so often , and if you want to buy and sell you better have some knowledge of what you are doing and not go on anybodys letter or card , i would not have bought that ball even if it had a present day jsa full letter

That's how I feel about it as well. A JSA letter means nothing to me, even if it has a photo of the item, but without a photo the letter should be worthless even to those who put confidence in letters.

But the problem with COA's for any product is that you should be able to trust them - their entire purpose is to give a customer confidence where he would otherwise have none. Even worse for JSA and PSA items, as those two companies are considered the best, and do huge amounts of business with high-dollar items, which allows them to point to such items and give their buyers even more false confidence.

Collectors like us should know better, but folks on the edge of autograph collecting might have to take a few lumps as you pointed out. Not fair, but that's how it is.

[EricS]

As I mentioned in the longer article, JSA had originally told me they wouldn't talk to me about it because James Spence the person wrote the guarantee, not JSA.

The good news is, I just spoke to James Spence on the phone and he agreed to return my money. I want to thank him for doing the right thing here.
Eric

[EricS]

Originally Posted by Runscott

2013 - 2 posts regarding your wax pack complaints
2014 - 2 posts regarding your baseball complaints
2015 - ???

Perhaps we should start a poll as to what you will rejoin us for to complain about in 2015

I rarely collect autographs and also was trying to get information about unopened wax. If you're saying I'm not adding much to this board, you're welcome to come read the gameusedforum.com site I established years ago which since merged with game used universe.
You're welcome to read my 2,670 posts over there.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by EricS

I rarely collect autographs and also was trying to get information about unopened wax. If you're saying I'm not adding much to this board, you're welcome to come read the gameusedforum.com site I established years ago which since merged with game used universe.
You're welcome to read my 2,670 posts over there.

Eric, this is Net54. Hopefully you aren't planning a hostile takeover.

[EricS]

I like Net54 a lot. It's what originally inspired the game used forum. The only thing hostile here are some of the posters. (Calm down, it's a joke.)

[drcy]

I'm a photo expert, and the reason why I'm always hesitant about 'LOA' writing is I consider the payment to be for my learned opinion about something. I'm not an insurance or bonding company, nor would I ever want to be an insurance or bonding company. I'm a photo historian who knows something about photos. If accepting $10 for my opinion means I'm now forever financially responsible for a $30,000 item, forget it. That doesn't seem like a winning bet. Keep your $10, and I'll keep my opinion to myself. If you want the item insured for $30000 go to an insurance company. They probably know nothing about photos, but maybe they'll write you out a $30,000 insurance policy. That's not my business, nor would I advertise it as my business. I think this whole hobby deal of getting a LOA as a form of financial insurance is dubious from both sides and from many angles. A letter of opinion is one person's or company's opinion, and it should be treated that way by both sides. Now, if a company such as PSA says they're also insuring the value, I guess that's an additional service, but one that I think actually corrupts the expert opinion process. When you pay someone just for his honest opinion, you'll get his honest opinion. If you place a $30,000 Sword of Damocles over his head and ask for his opinion, assume the sword will effect the opinion. People complain that PSA and PSA/DNA don't admit their mistakes (and I for one it's totally ridiculous for an authentication company to not yet admit the Gretzky T206 Wagner is trimmed when even the person who trimmed it has admitted in court that it's trimmed and that he trimmed it), but that's in major if not total part because they've assumed financially responsibility and will have to pay out when they admit they're wrong. As I said, the value insurance part and getting an honest opinion counter to each other, and the insurance part corrupts the opinion part.

A LOA is an opinion and should be treated as such. If you value the person's knowledge and opinion and believe he will be honest in is opinion, and know that others think that as well, then his opinion in writing may be worth $10 or $20 to you. An LOA should be about the imparting of knowledge-- an academic thing. Insurance lawyers, underwriters and accountants should't be involved in the composition of the letter-- that is if collector's concern really is about the honest dissemination of knowledge. In fact, a collector who truly and honestly wants an honest opinion about authenticity should say "I'm paying you $20, and this $20 is only and strictly for you to examine this item and give me an honest knowledgeable opinion what it is. That is the only thing this money is going for." If you do that, then you will be getting what LOA are supposed to be about.

Now, it's a different situations with things I sell. Clearly I'm financially responsible to the buyer if it turns out to be a fake. If I make an error in identification, of course a refund is warranted. And clearly if I offer a lifetime guarantee of authenticity with something I sell, theres' a lifetime guarantee.

[khw]

Originally Posted by drcy

I'm a photo expert, and the reason why I'm always hesitant about 'LOA' writing is I consider the payment to be for my learned opinion about something. I'm not an insurance or bonding company, nor would I ever want to be an insurance or bonding company. I'm a photo historian who knows something about photos. If accepting $10 for my opinion means I'm now forever financially responsible for a $30,000 item, forget it. That doesn't seem like a winning bet. Keep your $10, and I'll keep my opinion to myself. If you want the item insured for $30000 go to an insurance company. That's not my business, nor would I advertise it as my business. I think this whole hobby deal of getting a LOA as a form of financial insurance is dubious from both sides and from many angles. A letter of opinion is one person's or company's opinion, and it should be treated that way by both sides. Now, if a company such as PSA says they're also insuring the value, I guess that's an additional service, but one that I think actually corrupts the expert opinion process. When you pay someone just for his honest opinion, you'll get his honest opinion. If you place a $30,000 Sword of Damocles over his head and for his opinion, assume the sword will effect the opinion. People complain that PSA and PSA/DNA don't admit their mistakes (and I, for one think they should, and think it's totally ridiculous that they've never admitted the Gretzky T206 Wagner is trimmed), but that's in major part because they've assumed financially responsibility and will have to pay out when they admit they're wrong. As I said, the value insurance part and getting an honest opinion counter to each other, and the insurance part corrupts the opinion part.

Now, it's a different situations with things I sell. Clearly I'm financially responsible to the buyer if it turns out to be a fake. If I make an error in identification, of course a refund is warranted. And clearly if I offer a lifetime guarantee of authenticity with something I sell, theres' a lifetime guarantee.

stop!! that is making too much sense and it wont fit into the equation . but it is exactly the point if they are offering a opinion , until futher notice or somebody else comes along it is what the hobby accepts , again anybody is more than welcome to print up business cards and start a service, if the tpa are proven wrong as a example ball turns out made after death then they should refund the fees , but like you said if they accept 10.00 and are held responsible for 1000 item it is a bad deal and more than likely nothing will pass . in the case way back on page one however if you issue a seller loa lifetime guarnatee then you are responsible , like most reputable sellers do pay up or end up in this mess , but i question how spence had a chance to make it right before getting posted . and my point earlier is that these boards can do some harm as well as good because some of these opinions are a joke

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by khw

and my point earlier is that these boards can do some harm as well as good because some of these opinions are a joke

But your opinions are not the ones that are jokes, right?

Just trying to get it straight who has the right to voice an opinion in a discussion forum, and who doesn't.

[Duluth Eskimo]

Originally Posted by drcy

I'm a photo expert, and the reason why I'm always hesitant about 'LOA' writing is I consider the payment to be for my learned opinion about something. I'm not an insurance or bonding company, nor would I ever want to be an insurance or bonding company. I'm a photo historian who knows something about photos. If accepting $10 for my opinion means I'm now forever financially responsible for a $30,000 item, forget it. That doesn't seem like a winning bet. Keep your $10, and I'll keep my opinion to myself. If you want the item insured for $30000 go to an insurance company. They probably no nothing about photos, but maybe they'll write you out a $30,000 insurance policy. That's not my business, nor would I advertise it as my business. I think this whole hobby deal of getting a LOA as a form of financial insurance is dubious from both sides and from many angles. A letter of opinion is one person's or company's opinion, and it should be treated that way by both sides. Now, if a company such as PSA says they're also insuring the value, I guess that's an additional service, but one that I think actually corrupts the expert opinion process. When you pay someone just for his honest opinion, you'll get his honest opinion. If you place a $30,000 Sword of Damocles over his head and ask for his opinion, assume the sword will effect the opinion. People complain that PSA and PSA/DNA don't admit their mistakes (and I, for one it's totally ridiculous for an authentication company to not yet admit the Gretzky T206 Wagner is trimmed when even the person who trimmed it has admitted in court that it's trimmed and that he trimmed it), but that's in major if not total part because they've assumed financially responsibility and will have to pay out when they admit they're wrong. As I said, the value insurance part and getting an honest opinion counter to each other, and the insurance part corrupts the opinion part.

A LOA is an opinion and should be treated as such. If you value the person's knowledge and opinion and believe he will be honest in is opinion, and know that others think that as well, then his opinion in writing may be worth $10 or $20 to you. An LOA should be about the imparting of knowledge-- an academic thing. Insurance lawyers, underwriters and accountants should't be involved in the composition of the letter-- that is if collector's concern really is about the honest dissemination of knowledge.

Now, it's a different situations with things I sell. Clearly I'm financially responsible to the buyer if it turns out to be a fake. If I make an error in identification, of course a refund is warranted. And clearly if I offer a lifetime guarantee of authenticity with something I sell, theres' a lifetime guarantee.

Right on the money, but I suppose David is drinking the Kool-Aid too because he authenticated a couple of photos at the National. David, watch out you might be next.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by EricS

I like Net54 a lot. It's what originally inspired the game used forum. The only thing hostile here are some of the posters. (Calm down, it's a joke.)

Oh, that's no joke!

I read your posts on GUU, where I don't post much. Everyone over there has treated me well, but like you over here, there just isn't much for me to talk about over there. When I talk game-used, I feel kind of dumb (because I am).

I did really want to discuss a game-used screwing that someone recently took, and doesn't even yet know about, but I was afraid I would get the virtual hell beat out of me. Yeah, by pure coincidence, the vintage guy knows about someone unknowingly taking a $1,500 screwing. And I have some lovely photo evidence as well.

[EricS]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Oh, that's no joke!

I read your posts on GUU, where I don't post much. Everyone over there has treated me well, but like you over here, there just isn't much for me to talk about over there. When I talk game-used, I feel kind of dumb (because I am).

I did really want to discuss a game-used screwing that someone recently took, and doesn't even yet know about, but I was afraid I would get the virtual hell beat out of me. Yeah, by pure coincidence, the vintage guy knows about someone unknowingly taking a $1,500 screwing. And I have some lovely photo evidence as well.

Would love to hear about the "game-used screwing." Please post it on GUU. I will look for it.

As for this thread, I have to take myself out of this. There is entirely too much hostility to have a decent conversation. Thanks to everyone for your input here. Good luck.

[packs]

In my opinion the TPA's are necessary to the hobby. There should be something impartial in authentication. If you're a seller with a good reputation and you've been in the hobby for X years, know X about Y, to me you're still trying to sell me something.

A third party is impartial. They have no vested interest. Third party authentication could always been improved upon. No doubt. The current TPA's may not be getting it done but I still think there needs to be a TPA.

[yanks12025]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Oh, that's no joke!

I read your posts on GUU, where I don't post much. Everyone over there has treated me well, but like you over here, there just isn't much for me to talk about over there. When I talk game-used, I feel kind of dumb (because I am).

I did really want to discuss a game-used screwing that someone recently took, and doesn't even yet know about, but I was afraid I would get the virtual hell beat out of me. Yeah, by pure coincidence, the vintage guy knows about someone unknowingly taking a $1,500 screwing. And I have some lovely photo evidence as well.

I don't understabd collectors who have information about a possible bad item. But instead don't speak up and not say anything. So what if the person gets upset. It's better to say it then not too. Just my thought.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by yanks12025

I don't understabd collectors who have information about a possible bad item. But instead don't speak up and not say anything. So what if the person gets upset. It's better to say it then not too. Just my thought.

Brock, I appreciate and understand. The "beating" I referenced was not by the actual owner, but by others - just not up for it. If you would like to email me to discuss, I would be happy to - perhaps you have some ideas I haven't thought of.

[ooo-ribay]

Originally Posted by Runscott

2013 - 2 posts regarding your wax pack complaints
2014 - 2 posts regarding your baseball complaints
2015 - ???

Perhaps we should start a poll as to what you will rejoin us for to complain about in 2015

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