Getting the Record Straight Shoeless Joe Jackson Military service

[Lordstan]

Originally Posted by Bicem

They really need to switch over to the more reliable 15 women at a vase party method of photo identification.

Damn, Jeff! Be careful. I almost spit out my beverage when I read that!

[Nashvol]

Mark, yes, I assume so. I should have said that, sorry.

Skip

[jerseygary]

I've refrained from saying much on this thread besides to question the SABR "proof" and the whole military career of Jackson. But now after the ear thing, the Fleetwood Walker near miss and an even bigger mis-cue I gotta write something...

That Joe Jackson broadside is a a travesty! Not only does it have the computer quotation marks, but one of the typefaces used is Futura, which was not even cut until Jackson was comfortably retired! (first used in Germany from 1928 or so but not used in the US - let alone a small Southern letterpress printer - until the mid-late 1930's.

I do feature writing for a sports memorabilia auction house and because I am a graphic artist as well, I have been able to put the breaks on a few fakes by knowing my typeface and design history. Luckily many forgers don't know that stuff. In the two years I've worked for this AH, the owner has never hesitated to pull something that I found questionable.

[Lordstan]

I have to say, that even though the OP still doesn't believe us and thinks it's Jackson, this has been an incredible thread. It clearly shows the depth and breadth of knowledge on this board.
To me, the benefit of these type threads, beside removing or at least correctly identifying items, is the education I get from the many skilled people on the board. Learning how the experts do research is so interesting. For instance, I would've never thought of the history of typeface to be a key to spotting a fake. Now that I think about it, it obviously should be, but I don't think I ever considered it before. Just amazing.
I want thank all of you for being part of the board and hope you all continue for years to come.

[bmarlowe1]

The OP has posted a series of misidentified items on net54 in recent weeks. I think we should know his name.

Leon - what do you think?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by bmarlowe1

The OP has posted a series of misidentified items on net54 in recent weeks. I think we should know his name.

Leon - what do you think?

I think I agree with you Mark....his name is

Mich.ael Calv.ello


.

[yanks12025]

Looks like he ain't posting anymore. Hopefully it stays that way.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

I have to say, that even though the OP still doesn't believe us and thinks it's Jackson,

That's what he says, but do you really believe it? Given that he also consigned the Amos Russie and the Fleetwood Walker?

[Lordstan]

Originally Posted by Runscott

That's what he says, but do you really believe it? Given that he also consigned the Amos Russie and the Fleetwood Walker?

Perhaps you're right.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

Perhaps you're right.

It's a tough call. It could be that every time he sees an old photo, he 'sees' someone famous in it, because of extreme wishful thinking, then sends it to an auction house to make his fortune. I would probably believe this, except for the writing on the back of the Rusie piece. Still, perhaps he bought it that way from someone who knew he was a sucker for such items.

[TimCarrollArt]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

I have to say, that even though the OP still doesn't believe us and thinks it's Jackson, this has been an incredible thread. It clearly shows the depth and breadth of knowledge on this board.
To me, the benefit of these type threads, beside removing or at least correctly identifying items, is the education I get from the many skilled people on the board. Learning how the experts do research is so interesting. For instance, I would've never thought of the history of typeface to be a key to spotting a fake. Now that I think about it, it obviously should be, but I don't think I ever considered it before. Just amazing.
I want thank all of you for being part of the board and hope you all continue for years to come.

THIS. I continue to be blown away. Thanks to all for the education at Net54 University.

Tim

[blackbetsy]

Originally Posted by jerseygary

That Joe Jackson broadside is a a travesty! Not only does it have the computer quotation marks, but one of the typefaces used is Futura, which was not even cut until Jackson was comfortably retired! (first used in Germany from 1928 or so but not used in the US - let alone a small Southern letterpress printer - until the mid-late 1930's.

When I first saw this about 15 to 20 years back, I thought it might be legitimate, then I started researching drug stores named Devine / Devine's. I found one drug store in South Dakota from Joe's outlaw ball days, but that town did not have a Crosley Field. Of course, I thought of the Cincinnati field right off the bat, but never found a Divine's drug store in Cincinnati (I am fairly certainly, MLB and Landis would not have allowed Jackson to play at Crosley in Cincinnati, so I pretty much ruled that out from the get go). Never found another town in the United States with a Divine's drug store, much less one with a Crosley field.....that is when I came to the conclusion, someone was having fun with me, never thought to check the fonts (I too, am putting that little tidbit in my toolbox). In my 33 years of researching Joe, I've had more people come to me with "stuff" they thought was Joe, or belonged to Joe or was used by Joe and they wanted CRAZY money all because of his name. I had a guy try to sell me a mink coat that he said belong to Joe's wife, without any provenance.....just his word that he acquire it from her before she died and he wanted over 100K for it........NUTS!!! They see Shoeless and it turns into $hoele$$ in their minds!!!
On the broadside, the term "vendored" in the "food will be vendored" sentence bothered me when I first read it before doing any research. Prior to this, I had never seen that term used in a 1920's or 30's broadside or any other advertisement for a game with Joe Jackson. Reminds me when Pete Nash go hot and heavy on the Barry Halper Joe Jackson White Sox uniform at the Hall. The obviously undoing in that jersey is that it was made by Spalding and Wilson was the supplier of the Sox uniforms in Joe's day. The only thing was the Sox was sewn on with thread that was not developed until the 1940's. Hey Fakers.....if you're going to go to the trouble to try to fake us out, at least use period material :-)


Mike Nola
Official Historian
Shoeless Joe Jackson Virtual Hall of Fame
http://www.blackbetsy.com

[slidekellyslide]

Originally Posted by blackbetsy

When I first saw this about 15 to 20 years back, I thought it might be legitimate, then I started researching drug stores named Devine / Devine's. I found one drug store in South Dakota from Joe's outlaw ball days, but that town did not have a Crosley Field. Of course, I thought of the Cincinnati field right off the bat, but never found a Divine's drug store in Cincinnati (I am fairly certainly, MLB and Landis would not have allowed Jackson to play at Crosley in Cincinnati, so I pretty much ruled that out from the get go). Never found another town in the United States with a Divine's drug store, much less one with a Crosley field.....that is when I came to the conclusion, someone was having fun with me, never thought to check the fonts (I too, am putting that little tidbit in my toolbox). In my 33 years of researching Joe, I've had more people come to me with "stuff" they thought was Joe, or belonged to Joe or was used by Joe and they wanted CRAZY money all because of his name. I had a guy try to sell me a mink coat that he said belong to Joe's wife, without any provenance.....just his word that he acquire it from her before she died and he wanted over 100K for it........NUTS!!! They see Shoeless and it turns into $hoele$$ in their minds!!!
On the broadside, the term "vendored" in the "food will be vendored" sentence bothered me when I first read it before doing any research. Prior to this, I had never seen that term used in a 1920's or 30's broadside or any other advertisement for a game with Joe Jackson. Reminds me when Pete Nash go hot and heavy on the Barry Halper Joe Jackson White Sox uniform at the Hall. The obviously undoing in that jersey is that it was made by Spalding and Wilson was the supplier of the Sox uniforms in Joe's day. The only thing was the Sox was sewn on with thread that was not developed until the 1940's. Hey Fakers.....if you're going to go to the trouble to try to fake us out, at least use period material :-)


Mike Nola
Official Historian
Shoeless Joe Jackson Virtual Hall of Fame
http://www.blackbetsy.com

Well, you do have this sign listed on your website with no mention that it is a fantasy piece. It's pretty much the only link that shows up in a search of this item besides the few times it's been auctioned off....If I were a prospective bidder and saw it listed on your site I might be inclined to bid on it.

http://www.blackbetsy.com/photosOutlawBallDays.html

[blackbetsy]

Originally Posted by slidekellyslide

Well, you do have this sign listed on your website with no mention that it is a fantasy piece. It's pretty much the only link that shows up in a search of this item besides the few times it's been auctioned off....If I were a prospective bidder and saw it listed on your site I might be inclined to bid on it.

http://www.blackbetsy.com/photosOutlawBallDays.html

Whoops!!! This one got by us. We totally forgot we had this in the Outlaw Ball Days section of the site. It's been up for many years and we just totally forgot about it being there. We have corrected the listing to clearly let our visitors know that this is a fantasy broadside. Thanks for pointing that out to us.....now I'm gonna go wipe the egg off my face :-)

Mike Nola
Official Historian
Shoeless Joe Jackson Virtual Hall of Fame
http://www.blackbetsy.com

[Lordstan]

I agree with many of the last several posters have stated.
First, you post an item with some assertion of what it is and ask for our help identifying and pricing it. Someone has answered pretty much every thread questioning your identification of every item, with exception of the Pittsburgh and Gehrig Day items. Sometime the response was that it isn't the person you think. Other responses have been asking for more information or provenance from you regarding how you know what the item is. Your response is often a mixture of ignoring/ejecting the questions and challenges of the board members or some sort of double talk. I guess it's either meant to distract, you really have no idea what you are doing, or you are really wishing the things to be what you think that you are blinded to all reason. As I don't know you personally, I have no idea which it is, but it does get tiring. People get put off from answering as they don't feel it's worth going through the same dance over and over again.

[WillowGrove]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

Damn, Jeff! Be careful. I almost spit out my beverage when I read that!

+1. Great thread.

[hcv123]

Originally Posted by Lordstan

Damn, Jeff! Be careful. I almost spit out my beverage when I read that!

Why don't we see if a late night show host will do a street poll - at least more random than 15 pottery collecting women. We could develop criteria like if 6 out of 10 agree then it must be true!?

[BBSD]

I asked my wife who has no clue who Joe is and she immediately said the lips do not match.

[EVAJOY91]

I posted this magnificent 1909 world championship pirates photo back in july around the same time i posted the shoeless joe jackson military panoramic photo. I asked net54 members back in july to help me identify both photos. No one at that time paid any attention to the posts. One member comment yesterday said that "every photo i post i see someone famous" i ask that member where was he back in july? If i had the many comments on the joe jackson panoramic photo i wouldn't have consigned to huggins & scott. But again, no comment back then. Well here is another photo i posted back in july that will be auctioned by huggins & scott. Does everyone see the great honus wagner? Let me know what you experts think. I can still pull it even though this exact photo sold at auction in 2007 for $3,000. Thank you as always for any help you can provide. Regards, michael calvello

[Runscott]

nevermind

[baseball tourist]

Sigh....

[earlywynnfan]

I have to say, the Jackson mis-identification is far less egregious than that Fleetwood Walker travesty. "He's black and he's on an early baseball team," seems to be the only link between that guy and Walker. To even get that as far as an auction preview is pretty embarrassing.

Ken

[jerseygary]

I can't speak for anyone else, but I gently questioned Joe Jackson and his military career when you posted this photo earlier. This is what I wrote:

"I'm not a Shoeless Joe expert by any stretch, but didn't he avoid serving in the war by leaving the White Sox a few weeks into the 1918 season and getting employed at Bethlehem Steel shipyards in Wilmington, Delaware? I recall reading that Comiskey had some very choice words to say about what he felt was Jackson avoiding the draft by playing ball for Bethlehem Steel under the ruse of a war-production job. The Chicago sportswriters really let Jackson have it as well.

Did he join the Army at the tail end of the war? I'm curious what the story is behind the picture. "

You didn't add any answers to the thread and then started another with the same picture. I didn't pursue it further or voice any of my doubts about this picture (let alone say that I don't think it looks anything like Joe Jackson) because most of the threads you start are about these phantom famous players and don't seem to have anything to back them up with. Plus you never seem to take anyone's advice or expertise so I thought that any further reply to your old Joe Jackson military photo thread would be a waste of time. I can only assume others thought the same.

Now that you got the you somehow got the Jackson photo to appear in a legit auction house where misinformed buyers could be tricked - that's why the Net54 community has come down on your picture like a bag of hammers.

Before you were a harmless wishful thinker, now people could lose money if these pictures aren't thoroughly vetted. I hope your pictures do turn out to have the people you say are in them. That would be a great find. But don't post them on Net54 with the expectation of selling them at auction and expect the collectors here to just ok them. This forum has the highest concentration of baseball history and memorabilia minds on the web. Most here are extremely helpful and kind but also diligently protect their hobby.

If any of your pictures do turn out to really feature Fleet Walker or Joe Jackson, the fella's on Net54 would be the first to not only confirm the legitimacy of the photo but supply you with all the background information you need to sell the picture at auction, all for the sheer joy of helping a fellow collector. A Net54 member would probably wind up buying the piece as well.

I replied to your original tread. Others did as well, voicing their doubt. You just chose not to acknowledge us.

[Econteachert205]

Originally Posted by EVAJOY91

I posted this magnificent 1909 world championship pirates photo back in july around the same time i posted the shoeless joe jackson military panoramic photo. I asked net54 members back in july to help me identify both photos. No one at that time paid any attention to the posts. One member comment yesterday said that "every photo i post i see someone famous" i ask that member where was he back in july? If i had the many comments on the joe jackson panoramic photo i wouldn't have consigned to huggins & scott. But again, no comment back then. Well here is another photo i posted back in july that will be auctioned by huggins & scott. Does everyone see the great honus wagner? Let me know what you experts think. I can still pull it even though this exact photo sold at auction in 2007 for $3,000. Thank you as always for any help you can provide. Regards, michael calvello

I wasn't even a member in July but you seem to be suggesting that it is the duty of forum members to do free research for you and that it is their fault for not informing you in July that your photo was bogus. There's a big difference between someone saying hey have a look at this than the scrutiny an item receives when it ends up in a major auction house with a hefty price tag. Marlowe and others who are experts in their field don't have time to inspect every marginal piece that shows up on the board and we are all lucky they take the time they do to educate us all on such subjects. The Pittsburgh Pirates piece is great, I hope you do well with it.

[bgar3]

My recollection is that you(evajoy) were posting items that you identified and asked about values, not that you asked what the items actually were. In many instances there were substantial issues and questions about your identification, which resulted in defenses of the items by you, which were also questioned. I also recall members asking you to continue posting, as the items were interesting even if they were not what you assumed they were. The "1889 boston team" photo with Walker was clearly questioned, both as to team and Walker.

[yanks12025]

It now looks like this guys 1909 pirates poster was stolen from the hall of fame twice.

[Ladder7]

Another blame the messenger -rags to riches, back to rags story... Thanks for stopping by!

[67Rally]

Originally Posted by yanks12025

It now looks like this guys 1909 pirates poster was stolen from the hall of fame twice.

This was one of the most interesting threads that I have read on any message board. I realize that I am johnny-come-lately on this thread but having read this one and the two others, I found myself astonished. From the moment I saw the first thread with the OP's sharing of the framed yardlong, I wondered which soldier was being referenced as Jackson. I tried to give benefit of doubt though my first instincts were to re-examine each face in that top row trying to see which one could be mistaken for the man. Not one person stood out to me.

When someone buys the story rather than the artifact, they want so desperately to believe it to be true despite every indication that the story is BS. To deny biographers who have researched this man ad nauseum and never having found a shred of evidence of service and then to ignore this fact while trying to sell the piece (hoping for a large payday) is a massive credibility hole.

Thanks to all who weighed in.

I am just a lowly researcher and military historian with a focus on baseball militaria.

ChevronsandDiamonds.org