An evidence based discussion about the players who've been overlooked for Cooperstown

[bosoxfan]

[QUOTE=the 'stache;1318228 Ted Williams had a career WAR of 123.1 His oWAR was 126.3. His dWAR was -13.3. Clearly, he is a Hall of Famer because of his bat. It's been written that when Carl Yastrzemski came up for the Red Sox, the team immediately got better. He provided comparable offense, and vastly improved the defense.

Great subject and very thought provoking. Nice job!

Williams was not a great fielder that is true. He was NOT a terrible outfielder.
His dwar was -13.3. 46% of that negative came in his last 3 years when he was 39, 40, and 41 years old and playing hurt and still, had an overall war or 6.8.
To say that when Yaz came up the team immediately got better is not true. Yastrzemski's dwar in his first year was in negative territory and so was his offense.
There's a lot of great gloves that never make it to the show because they can't hit, but if you can hit, they will always find a spot for you.

[CMIZ5290]

Dale Murphy?

[39special]

Gil Hodges

[brewing]

Dick Allen, and that double combo from Detroit.

[BearBailey]

This topic becomes more important as Frank Thomas was just elected and the potential for Edgar Martinez or David Ortiz in the future who are true 1 dimensional players as full time DHs might be elected in the future. Defense is just as important as offense but gets no credit.

[clydepepper]

Since defense has been prevalent in this thread, how about a guy who is generally considered the best modern day outfielder Andruw Jones.

His offensive stats come up short- .254 BA, 1933 hits, 434 homers

however...his defense, oh his defense was something to behold!

On the All-Time Career list for dWAR, 47 of the top 50 are Shortstops, Third-Basemen, and Catchers.

The other three are two Hall-of-Fame Second-Basemen, Mazeroski (23.9) and Fox (21.0)...and one outfielder, Andruw (24.1)

It should be pointed out that infielders and catchers have the big advantage in dWAR in that they have more total chances per game than outfielders. This makes Andruw's ranking all the more impressive.

If Mazeroski and Fox deserve to be in, and I realize that has been a hot topic, certainly Andruw deserves his shot. His big disadvantage is that his peers (eligible outfielders) will be judged primarily on their superior offensive stats...so this could be a push.

[the 'stache]

There are certainly some new metrics, both offensive and defensive, that I am learning on the fly. I've yet to find one metric that was all inclusive. Even when you compare something like WAR, or the components, offensive and defensive WAR, there are other things that are getting left out. The Ozzie Smith to Belanger comparison was the obvious comp because they both were clearly defensive first players, and among the best, if not the best, at their position defensively in their generation. But while Ozzie Smith's offensive output was not anywhere near the output of some of today's shortstops like Troy Tulowitzki, or even Derek Jeter, it was still better than Belangers. Ozzie was better, and he played longer. Plus, he brought a speed component that Belanger really didn't have. I think he stole about three times as many bases.

Part of the reason why I want to do this as a discussion is that I invite other people who love analyzing baseball statistics as I do to jump into the conversation, and bring up things that I might have missed, or may have just glossed over. There are so many new methods of evaluating play, so it makes for an interesting discussion while at the same time it proves educational for me. One day soon, I'll be able to rattle off these new metrics like I created them. But I'm not there yet. So while I learn, and maybe the rest of us consider players that we might not have before, it's fun for everybody. Plus, if we do look at somebody who has been considered for Cooperstown before, but passed over, maybe these new metrics, and a second (or third) look will change some minds. The baseball community is a pretty tight-knit one. When I read stories online, you often see one writer commenting on, or expanding on something that another writer may have commented on. There's no telling who will read this. If some compelling evidence is provided, I wouldn't at all be surprised if it made its way to somebody with the ability to shape a player's Hall of Fame fortunes. The internet isn't like real life. If I wanted to meet John Thorn, Major League Baseball's official historian, I'd have to plan a trip, or attend a function I knew he'd be at, and hope for a chance encounter. But if you write a fascinating article, word of mouth can spread on the internet. This is the age where videos "go viral". Well, my ultimate aim is to blog on my own website, a website that will be devoted to two things-our hobby, and the sport that has birthed our hobby. I love both passionately, and these somewhat informal chats we hold, prove to be nice warm ups for me.

As I've said before many times, baseball, more than any other sport, lends itself to statistical analysis. The other sports will evolve over time. Pro Football has evolved, and where offenses used to be run first, it's clear that passing offenses have become the norm in the game. But now, I think, you're starting to see a shift back to the old smash mouth brand of football. But baseball, though it has had periods where pitching or hitting dominated, has stayed pretty much the same. Athletes are bigger, stronger and faster now, but the game has a way of still rewarding the great players, not necessarily the greatest athletes. No matter how fast you are, or how far you can hit a baseball, the very best hitters are still going to make an out 7 out of 10 times they come to the plate.

Each time we focus on a different player, you get more people involved in the discussion. And with more people in that discussion, the conversation gets more and more interesting.

Minoso ought to be fun. I'm still working on him, but I'm a little surprised thus far by how well he's matched up against some of the other hitters in his generation. The Packers have lost, so now I can get back to it.

Carl Mays
Dick Allen
Dale Murphy
Andruw Jones
Dave Parker
Omar Vizquel

Some good players coming up.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

Since defense has been prevalent in this thread, how about a guy who is generally considered the best modern day outfielder Andruw Jones.

Jones is one we will definitely look at.