OT: Did Adam Dunn ruin his Hall chances

[ctownboy]

Uh, no.

If people who haven't seen Dunn play for a long period of time can come on this board and slobber all over his big, overweight butt then I can come on here and tell the other side of the story.

The story about fans having to put up with his horrible defense, his station to station baserunning ability, his failure to hit the ball to the opposite field, his failure to drive in runs in key situations, his 30% strike out rate, his failure to get into shape and stay in shape, his failure to work on his game over the Winter, his going into the tank EVERY September.

For those espousing Dunn for the Hall Of Fame, I would like to know how many have actually watched him over an entire season? I would like to know how many have seen him be totally inept at the plate for an entire month, then get hot for two weeks and then be inept for another entire month.

I spent my money going to Reds games when he played for Cincinnati and all I saw was an overweight oaf who lumbered around in the outfield and who struck out on called third strikes with runners on or in scoring position. He struck out on those pitches because they were over the outer third of the plate and he was too stubborn to stop swinging for the fences, trying to pull the ball for a home run.

So for every Dunn butt kisser, I want to know how many times YOU have actually seen him play? I will tell you, the more you do, the worse he gets and the more it will bother you that he is paid millions of dollars to be the fraternity class clown.

David

[brob28]

Originally Posted by ctownboy

Uh, no.

If people who haven't seen Dunn play for a long period of time can come on this board and slobber all over his big, overweight butt then I can come on here and tell the other side of the story.

The story about fans having to put up with his horrible defense, his station to station baserunning ability, his failure to hit the ball to the opposite field, his failure to drive in runs in key situations, his 30% strike out rate, his failure to get into shape and stay in shape, his failure to work on his game over the Winter, his going into the tank EVERY September.

For those espousing Dunn for the Hall Of Fame, I would like to know how many have actually watched him over an entire season? I would like to know how many have seen him be totally inept at the plate for an entire month, then get hot for two weeks and then be inept for another entire month.

I spent my money going to Reds games when he played for Cincinnati and all I saw was an overweight oaf who lumbered around in the outfield and who struck out on called third strikes with runners on or in scoring position. He struck out on those pitches because they were over the outer third of the plate and he was too stubborn to stop swinging for the fences, trying to pull the ball for a home run.

So for every Dunn butt kisser, I want to know how many times YOU have actually seen him play? I will tell you, the more you do, the worse he gets and the more it will bother you that he is paid millions of dollars to be the fraternity class clown.

David

LOL, cant disagree with any of that! As a long suffering White Sox fan these last 3+ years have been miserable watching him. I've never seen anyone get fooled so often by off-speed pitches.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by ctownboy

Uh, no.

If people who haven't seen Dunn play for a long period of time can come on this board and slobber all over his big, overweight butt then I can come on here and tell the other side of the story.

The story about fans having to put up with his horrible defense, his station to station baserunning ability, his failure to hit the ball to the opposite field, his failure to drive in runs in key situations, his 30% strike out rate, his failure to get into shape and stay in shape, his failure to work on his game over the Winter, his going into the tank EVERY September.

For those espousing Dunn for the Hall Of Fame, I would like to know how many have actually watched him over an entire season? I would like to know how many have seen him be totally inept at the plate for an entire month, then get hot for two weeks and then be inept for another entire month.

I spent my money going to Reds games when he played for Cincinnati and all I saw was an overweight oaf who lumbered around in the outfield and who struck out on called third strikes with runners on or in scoring position. He struck out on those pitches because they were over the outer third of the plate and he was too stubborn to stop swinging for the fences, trying to pull the ball for a home run.

So for every Dunn butt kisser, I want to know how many times YOU have actually seen him play? I will tell you, the more you do, the worse he gets and the more it will bother you that he is paid millions of dollars to be the fraternity class clown.

David

Nice post, David. It illustrates that there really is some value in having a good personality.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by ctownboy

And the team he plays for is also doing the same thing - losing.

He's only played 3 games with the A's (and was only a PH in one of those games). As Scott pointed out earlier in the thread, maybe he just needed a change of scenery. Since joining the team, he's gone 4 for 8 with 2 HRs and 4 RBIs - that's 1/3 of their runs in those 3 games and, again, he only had 1 AB in one of those games. A's losing and it's Dunn's fault? Really?

Originally Posted by ctownboy

his going into the tank EVERY September.

I realize we're only 3 games into the month, but isn't 4 for 8 with 2 HRs and 4 RBIs is a pretty good start to September, or am I missing something?

Originally Posted by ctownboy

So for every Dunn butt kisser, I want to know how many times YOU have actually seen him play?

Ummm, being from Houston, I followed him his entire career.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Ummm, being from Houston, I followed him his entire career.

As an Astros fan, you are.......Dunn

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

I realize we're only 3 games into the month, but isn't 4 for 8 with 2 HRs and 4 RBIs is a pretty good start to September, or am I missing something?

But he's not winning games single-handedly. If he was any good, he'd also be encouraging his pitchers to do a better job.

"Hey Lester - I'm gonna hit one HR, but I need you to not give up two, as I can't get anyone else on our side to hit one."

[ctownboy]

Typical response from Dunn fans - it's the pitchers fault. He is only one guy on the team. Yada. Yada. Yada.

Adam Dunn is a beer league softball player playing home run derby. That is it. I said that in 2007 and it is still true today.

Four years ago, Dunn signed a 4 year, $60 million dollar contract with the White Sox. In 2011, his first year with the team, at age 31, in 415 at bats, Dunn had the following stats: 11 home runs, 36 runs scored, 42 rbi, 75 walks, 177 strike outs, .159 batting average, .292 OBP, .277 slugging percentage, .569 OPS and a NEGATIVE 3.1 WAR.

A middle of the order hitter getting paid $15 million dollars a year to produce that. How is THAT the pitchers fault? Yes, Dunn is only one guy on the team but when you are one of the highest paid players on the team and you produce like that, don't you think the OTHER players on the team try to do more than they are capable of to try and offset what doesn't ISN'T producing?

Dunn is getting paid $15 million dollars this year to be a platoon DH. Think about THAT?

David

[ctownboy]

Dunn was born and raised just outside of Houston. I always laughed at Dunn when the Reds played the Astros.

Dunn wouldn't hustle one bit when he played other teams but when he was playing the Astros, especially in Houston, he would do things he NEVER did anytime else. Dunn would steal bases, run hard for balls in the outfield and try to hit the ball to the opposite field. Dunn didn't mind getting booed EXCEPT when it was the Astros. He played hard in front of the home town fans.

I always thought it would be good for Dunn to play for Houston. Then, I thought about it and saw how wrong I was.

If he played for the Astros, it would mean he would have to hustle, play hard and stay in shape the whole year, things that Dunn could never do for long stretches of time. So it became obvious why he never played for them.

David

[packs]

I can think of many other obvious reasons why players don't end up on an Astros roster.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by ctownboy

Typical response from Dunn fans - it's the pitchers fault. He is only one guy on the team. Yada. Yada. Yada.

Dunn accounted for the only run in the game for the A's, yet it is his fault they lost

Given your other comments, you must be one handsome, athletic, intelligent dude.

[ctownboy]

Runscott,

As a fan of the Reds when Dunn was on the team I can tell you have the same arguments as Dunn fans back then.

Look at the stats and the Reds had a BAD pitching staff. Look at the stats and Dunn hit 40 home runs and had 100 rbi's. Dunn good, pitching staff bad.

The problem with that is that people did NOT look at Dunn's defensive stats or his base running ability. Furthermore, they didn't look at his game log and see when he hit his home runs.

Dunn was a HORRIBLE defensive player. If you never saw him play and don't believe me then go and read what Jon DeWan of the Fielding Bible had to say about Dunn's defense.

Because he was overweight and out of shape, he had no range. Because of THAT, he played deeper than normal. This meant a pitcher could make a good pitch and the ball would STILL fall in for a hit because Dunn could NOT get to it. This also meant that even playing deeper, Dunn could not cut off balls down the lines or in the gap and keep them from being extra base hits. This isn't even mentioning the errors he committed on balls that he DID get to or his weak and inaccurate throwing arm.

Add all of those things to the Reds playing in a hitter friendly ball park and you get pitchers throwing more pitches than they should have, giving up more hits and extra base hits than they should have and then giving up more runs than they should have.

As far as his offense goes, yes, he hit home runs but even then, it was no sure thing his team would win when he did so.

Again, when your middle of the order hitter is one of the highest paid players on the team and they are NOT producing on offense, are horrible on defense and do not scare the pitcher, catcher or defense when they are on base then they are a NEGATIVE as far as winning a baseball game goes.

Look at Dunn's game log and you will see that he can go three weeks to a month where he produces very little on offense. He will then have about a two week period when he gets hot. When you add his two, two week hot periods together they usually add up to about HALF of his full year production as far as home runs and rbis go.

So, Dunn is super productive for those two periods. The problem is, if the other hitters on the team or the pitchers are NOT good during that period then Dunn's hot streaks are wasted. That ALSO means that with Dunn being UNPRODUCTIVE the other 120 to 130 games during the year, it is hard for a team to be a winner.

Dunn has hit two home runs for the A's in three games since he has been there but the team is 1 and 2. What do YOU think is going to happen when Dunn goes into one of his 0 for 20 streaks with a bunch of strike outs and no rbi's?

Dunn is happy and talking about NOT retiring now. When he goes into one of his patented, long streaks of unproductiveness and the fans are booing him, watch how that talk ceases. Also watch how the fans will get sick of him smiling in the dugout when the A's are losing. Watch how they will get sick of him standing at the plate, watching a called third strike cross the dish when there is a runner on third base.

Watch, just like with the Reds, Diamondbacks, Nationals and White Sox, how the fans will say he is a nice guy but they can't wait for him to be off of their team or, once he is off of their team, how he is a nice guy but they are glad he is gone.

David

[Runscott]

David, I'm one of the guys who said he isn't HOF-worthy. I was just surprised at the personal shots you took at the guy. Personality and likability are good traits to have, even if you aren't a HOF-calibre baseball player. If Dunn was Albert Bell-like, this thread wouldn't even exist.

[Peter_Spaeth]

[QUOTE=vintagetoppsguy;1318369}
I realize we're only 3 games into the month, but isn't 4 for 8 with 2 HRs and 4 RBIs is a pretty good start to September, or am I missing something?[/QUOTE]

How's Adam doing, we haven't heard from you?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

How's Adam doing, we haven't heard from you?

Since joining the A's, he's batting .278 (better than his career average) with 2 HRs and 7 RBIs. Adam will be gald you asked about him

[packs]

I still believe that 500 homers is the magic number and should be a lock. The only players to eclipse that mark and not be voted in are suspected or admitted cheaters. If you have to cheat to accomplish a feat like 500 homers, then that must mean there is some significance to the accomplishment.

Craig Biggio reached 3,000 hits without ever being a great player. No MVP awards, though he did receive votes. Since he didn't make it, is the new number 3,500 hits? 3,250?

[pbspelly]

Originally Posted by packs

I still believe that 500 homers is the magic number and should be a lock. The only players to eclipse that mark and not be voted in are suspected or admitted cheaters. If you have to cheat to accomplish a feat like 500 homers, then that must mean there is some significance to the accomplishment.

Craig Biggio reached 3,000 hits without ever being a great player. No MVP awards, though he did receive votes. Since he didn't make it, is the new number 3,500 hits? 3,250?

Biggio will eventually make it. He only missed by two votes, and no player has debuted on the ballot with more votes and been shut out in the end. And besides Gil Hodges and Jack Morris, every player who has ever received at least 50 percent of the vote has ultimately landed in Cooperstown — either by election or via the veterans committee.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Gary, I've said it before but I think you missed it: the statement that 500 HR's is a lock for the HOF is FAILED LOGIC. '500 HRs' is not why these guys got into the HOF - it is only part of it. The guys with 500 HR's did a lot more than just hit 500 HR's. Adam Dunn has done a lot less.

I agree that 500 is not a lock. Adam Dunn is a liability to a team and should hold the record for the worst season in 2011 (but the manager played the stats game and kept him out of 6 extra at bats to make sure it didn't go down as a full season).

Originally Posted by packs

I still believe that 500 homers is the magic number and should be a lock. The only players to eclipse that mark and not be voted in are suspected or admitted cheaters. If you have to cheat to accomplish a feat like 500 homers, then that must mean there is some significance to the accomplishment.

Craig Biggio reached 3,000 hits without ever being a great player. No MVP awards, though he did receive votes. Since he didn't make it, is the new number 3,500 hits? 3,250?

Craig Biggio contributed a lot more to his team than Dunn did. Biggio's RAA (runs above average) is 306, with 257 coming from batting. Dunn's RAA is -82, he even has a worse number with batting than Biggio at 217.

The HOF should be smarter than looking at one stat, and they have been. No one has gotten in as a player with a negative RAA that I have seen (I could have missed someone EDIT - I looked through every HOF and there is one with a negative RAA: Lloyd Waner had a -4).

Here is a list of everyone with more career home runs than Dunn and their RAA. The lowest is 136 with Canseco. The lowest HOFer is 213 with Winfield.

RAA		# HR
1243	Barry*Bonds*(22)	762
862	Hank*Aaron+*(23)	755
1327	Babe*Ruth+*(22)	714
1041	Willie*Mays+*(22)	660
796	Alex*Rodriguez*(20, 38)	654
482	Ken*Griffey*(22)	630
383	Jim*Thome*(22)	612
301	Sammy*Sosa*(18)	609
613	Frank*Robinson+*(21)	586
379	Mark*McGwire*(16)	583
280	Harmon*Killebrew+*(22)	573
291	Rafael*Palmeiro*(20)	569
313	Reggie*Jackson+*(21)	563
363	Manny*Ramirez*(19, 42)	555
681	Mike*Schmidt+*(18)	548
788	Mickey*Mantle+*(18)	536
695	Jimmie*Foxx+*(20)	534
274	Willie*McCovey+*(22)	521
393	Frank*Thomas+*(19)	521
949	Ted*Williams+*(19)	521
692	Albert*Pujols*(14, 34)	518
284	Ernie*Banks+*(19)	512
578	Eddie*Mathews+*(17)	512
719	Mel*Ott+*(22)	511
270	Gary*Sheffield*(22)	509
242	Eddie*Murray+*(21)	504
862	Lou*Gehrig+*(17)	493
188	Fred*McGriff*(19)	493
809	Stan*Musial+*(22)	475
239	Willie*Stargell+*(21)	475
157	Carlos*Delgado*(17)	473
562	Chipper*Jones*(19)	468
213	Dave*Winfield+*(22)	465
152	David*Ortiz*(18, 38)	463
136	Jose*Canseco*(17)	462
-82	Adam*Dunn*(14, 34)	462

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Since joining the A's, he's batting .278 (better than his career average) with 2 HRs and 7 RBIs. Adam will be gald you asked about him

Don't sell that pile of Dunn rookies just yet!!

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Don't sell that pile of Dunn rookies just yet!!

That's my retirement fund. Who needs a 401k?

[sayhey24]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Since joining the A's, he's batting .278 (better than his career average) with 2 HRs and 7 RBIs. Adam will be gald you asked about him

Those numbers translate to 21 HR and 75 RBI over the course of a 150 game season -- those aren't the numbers you're looking for from a player whose only calling card for the Hall of Fame is his power.

Greg

[nolemmings]

"Adam Dunn is a liability to a team and should hold the record for the worst season in 2011 (but the manager played the stats game and kept him out of 6 extra at bats to make sure it didn't go down as a full season)."

I had forgotten just how awful he was in that 2011 season--his AL debut. He actually had more strikeouts than batting average points 177 to 159. .159? That's below the Mrs. Mendoza line.

EDITED to add: I see where he followed that up with another season of Ks>avg, when he whiffed 222 times and hit .204 in 2012.

[packs]

There's no defending that season. But if you're going to knock him for it then Reggie should be in the conversation too:

1983: hit .194 with 140 K's in 397 AB's with a .290 OBP.

At this point Reggie had not yet hit 500 homers.