Honus and his buddies...

[bobbvc]

Back middle is Fred Clarke, Next to Wagner is Abbatichio. Guy in back next to Dots Miller is unknown, most likely local fisherman or guide. I have a companion photo which I've posted asking some of these same questions. Will try to locate it again.

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by bobbvc

Back middle is Fred Clarke, Next to Wagner is Abbatichio. Guy in back next to Dots Miller is unknown, most likely local fisherman or guide. I have a companion photo which I've posted asking some of these same questions. Will try to locate it again.

If you want, you can see the old 2009 thread at http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=112788. It surely is the same fishing trip. I've posted 2 photos of Fred Clarke below left, the face in question from the current thread erroneously claimed to be Lobert (below 2nd from right), and the same guy from the photo from the 2009 thread below far right. Not only is he not Lobert, he is with certainty not Fred Clarke.

In the 2009 thread I wasn't sure. Back then I didn't have enough good images handy in order to make a case. Now I do.

For reasons similar to those given for Lobert, it is not possible for this guy to be Clarke. While a higher res scan of the 2 faces in question would help, the differences in nose, jaw structure and surface of the chin are substantial. For example, Clarke has a distinct horizontal crease (mentolabial groove) across his chin about 3/4" below his lower lip. It is located at the bottom of the shadow below his lower lip. The man in question has a similar feature, but it appears to be much closer to his lower lip (I believe that hi-res scans would show this even more clearly). Also Clarke has a very wide mandible - that's easy to see in the image 2nd from left. The man in question does not. Those are just a couple of points that can be made. Overall these are highly dissimilar faces.

[Econteachert205]

Now all I want to know is who that guy is

[bobbvc]

L-R
Edward James Abbaticchio, Dots Miller, Honus Wagner, Captain Fred Clarke, Unknown(my guess is local river man)
Tell you how I know later

[Econteachert205]

All I want is closure.

[bmarlowe1]

Originally Posted by bobbvc

L-R
Edward James Abbaticchio, Dots Miller, Honus Wagner, Captain Fred Clarke, Unknown(my guess is local river man)
Tell you how I know later

With all due respect, this is a good lesson in how far such self-delusion can go, even for an experienced collector, and even when faces are so strikingly different. This is why so many misidentified photos are bought and sold, and it would be equivalent to someone 100 years from now saying that photos of Jeter and Andy Petit depict the same person.

There is no background "story" that can overcome the forensics here. What would enhance the discussion is a posting in hi-res of the face in question.

[bobbvc]

Let's start with the logical agreements.
1- The two photos are from the same trip.
2- The guy in back #4 from left is the same person as #4 from left in both photos.
Everyone on board so far?

Here are some facts.
Clarke was referred to by his players generally and especially by Wagner as "Cap". Enclosed here is a scan from page 45 of The Devaleria's biography of Wagner. There are many other sources as well. If Wagner referred to Clarke as Cap it's logical to assume Ed Abbaticchio sitting two chairs away did as well.

The other scan is the back of the second photo.
The writing is in Ed Abbaticchio's hand.
He identifies himself and his companions as:

EJA (Abbaticchio), Miller, Wagner, Cap, And what appears to say Rivers.

Clarke was known as "Cap" to his players. He is clearly identified as such in the second photo. #4 is the same person in both photos. Therefore, hence and even ergo- #4 in photo 1 is Clarke.

Now someone find out who Rivers is.

[bmarlowe1]

This was all discussed in 2009. As I recall from the thread, you were the only one who was "sure" that "Cap" meant Clarke in this case. "Cap" could also be the name of a fishing guide - far more likely given the gross dissimilarity of the faces. It could also refer to a location, like "Cap River."

Regardless of what was written on the back of the photo (a major source of fraud in the hobby) and what the handwriting folks may say about who wrote it (they are not always right), letting that trump major differences in skull stucture and facial features (none of which you have been able to explain) is an unwise pratice.

Note also that we have a lot of photos that were for sure annotated by major figures (like Spalding and McGreevy for example) that are loaded with ID errors.

You might do well to read pages 1 and 2 of http://sabr.box.com/shared/static/10...092a683653.pdf
Even if it doesn't help you , it may help others. Keep in mind that you are claiming that these 2 guys are the same person:

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by bobbvc

Let's start with the logical agreements.
1- The two photos are from the same trip.
2- The guy in back #4 from left is the same person as #4 from left in both photos.

You did really well with the above part.

To be fair to Bob, there are plenty of people who simply don't recognize faces. People in that situation have no choice but to go through the same sort of exercise that Bob did with the remainder of his post, relying exclusively on other cues (such as the notes on the back) to provide what they need. I know people who can meet the same person several times, and never remember their faces - not through rudeness, but simply because the features of a face don't provide them enough information to identify people.