Some rare and expensive bakery goodies......

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by Leon

Rhett, Michael is just saying he doesn't own any. It's not that unique of a way of saying it, actually. These aren't fake, we all know it. Don't beat yourself up.

Not beating myself up over it I just don't understand the "non-consensus" on the subject. I actually find this thread pretty humorous. The "crazy pills" comment is a Zoolander reference (in case anybody actually watched that movie) and am 100% not upset about anything (if that is how it is coming across).

[rhettyeakley]

Just for fun...

without looking up subjects or anything else pick the Herpolsheimer's (sorry for size but I wanted them to be somewhat big)...

[tiger8mush]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

Just for fun...

without looking up subjects or anything else pick the Herpolsheimer's (sorry for size but I wanted them to be somewhat big)...

Just for fun I'll guess the Charles Deal? 25% chance

I know almost nothing about these and have no dog in the fight, but it was mentioned as a possible possibility - could the 1921 Herps have been blank backs originally (printed along w/the other M101 blank backs so the cards are authentic, correct paper, etc) with the backs printed? Again, I might've missed a post explaining why its 100% not possible, but is it even a 1% possible explanation as to why Brian's seller waved them off as being fakes?

Ok, feel free to call me a dumbass now

[nolemmings]

Rob you're not a dumbass. They're not m101 though, so your reference to that set is misplaced-- the cards are akin to E121, Holsum, D350-3 Standard Biscuit, Shotwell, Queen City, w575 etc.

I'll let Rhett and others who focus on these sets elaborate but will give my two cents. As I understand your question, you wonder whether legitimate card fronts from 1921 had their backs added later. This has always been a concern of mine with stamped backs, as anyone can have a stamp cheaply created to say most anything, and then the only trick would be getting the right ink. As mentioned, some known Henry Johnson and a couple of advertised chocolate brands using these card fronts have surfaced which are known to be fake in this regard.

These Herps were printed--all are centered and there is no uneven inking. To print them as you ask would require that you first have an uncut sheet of genuine blank-backed e121s, a rare enough piece in its own right. Why anyone would defile such an item with fake backs and then cut it into cards to create fantasy pieces defies logic. Moreover, and I'll let those with printing experience take over here, it would be very cost ineffective and expensive to set up the printing process for such an endeavor, particularly to produce just one sheet. This makes even less sense if done 40 years ago with no likelihood or even creator's desire of recouping money. Finally as I understand it, there are some of these Herpolsheimer's that depict players who are unknown to e121, so it's even less possible someone could have even used a sheet of blank-backed e121s, leaving perhaps only w575s as candidates, which themselves may have been strips, not sheets. Of course, I have not even touched upon the expertise required to adequately replicate the design, ink and fonts to look like those used in some of the other 1921 sets.

I think you also have to ask yourself, if someone really had used a legit sheet of blank-backed cards and just added very realistic period-looking backs, how in the heck would a dealer be able to so easily dismiss them as fakes? What analysis was undertaken–if the fronts are real then the “tell” must be on the backs, right? What is it? What did they know 40, 20 or 15 years ago that we don’t know now?

No, I stick to my theory that someone just dismissed them because they were unknown/ uncatalogued and because other known fakes using some of the same fronts (but different backs) had been spotted and were on the hobby radar at the time.

[glchen]

After reading this older thread (w/ many of the same folks in this one), I'm now w/ most of the others in believing that these card are authentic. Here's the link: Link. The thing that is very convincing to me are the arguments from Rhett and Frank that many of the images in these card are extremely rare. If someone was trying to make a reprint set, why would they use such difficult to find images? They would use the common ones from the E120-80 or W575 sets.

I think someone told the original seller that Brian met that the cards were fake. Someone that person trusted as a knowledgeable collector. That is why he seemed so honest when talking to Brian and priced the cards so low. Maybe they simply made a mistake at that time thinking the cards were fake because the set was unique and not catalogued.

[smokelessjoe]

For what it is worth...

Here is some interesting stuff: Not sure that it helps in any way though....

A picture I pulled from Lemke's Blog of the Ruth / Shotwell with very similar border...

Next, is an article showing that the Shotwell MFG DID insert "Souvenirs" into their Checkers Brand popcorn box (similar to Crack Jacks)...

Last is an advertisement from Shotwells "popcorn that pops" that has a similar border...

[darwinbulldog]

Originally Posted by tiger8mush

Just for fun I'll guess the Charles Deal? 25% chance

I'll take Weilman. Now we're up to 50/50.