Tim Kurkjian and the greatest SS's

[Peter_Spaeth]

ichiro hit .350 and had on OBP of .381. That has to be one of the lowest differentials ever. The same year, same team, Olerud and Martinez were higher, at .401 and .423.

[Mountaineer]

Love him or hate him, Arod has to be considered in the top 3 of all-time (ignoring his PED use). He was a machine and if he wouldn't have been injured a lot here over the years and if he didn't test positive for PED's, he could have made a very strong argument as being the best SS of all-time.

I am a Yankees fan, but I do not have Jeter in my top 5. He has been consistent through the multitude of playing years just like Ripken was. The longevity factor has helped increase Ripken's and Jeter's places on top SS lists. Jeter is a top 10 SS though.

[the 'stache]

Jeter has been a very productive shortstop, and he's been a productive shortstop for a long time. There haven't been a lot of shortstops in the game's history that hit .330 or .340. Jeter could do that for you. He could hit the occasional home run. He could steal the occasional base. It just seemed to me, anyway, that when Jeter was doing these things, it was always at the most critical moment. So while Jeter may not have hit a lot of home runs, I can think of a few that he hit that were absolutely huge, and so important to his team's success.

But one thing that gets overlooked. Jeter had some pretty exceptional talent around him throughout his career. He wasn't winning those games alone. Put it this way. Since 1995, Derek Jeter's first season, through 2014, the New York Yankees have done this:

1,877 wins
1,299 losses
3 ties
.591 winning percentage, or 96 wins a season for 20 years
5 World Series titles

When we're looking at how Derek Jeter has been as a player, let's not forget the absolutely spectacular talent that has surrounded him. To his left, he's had probably the best second baseman in the game, Robinson Cano, since 2005. He's had Alex Rodriguez to his right at third base. He's had talent everywhere. He has been a great player, of course, but he's scored 2,000 runs because he's had some of the biggest bats in the game behind him. He's gotten on base, and ya, he's stolen a few bases. But he's scored a lot of runs, and the Yankees have won a lot of games because they've had a roster filled with stars.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

ichiro hit .350 and had on OBP of .381. That has to be one of the lowest differentials ever. The same year, same team, Olerud and Martinez were higher, at .401 and .423.

It's actually not. Rob Picciolo, believe it or not, once had a season with a LOWER OBP than batting average. Who cares if it was just 14 games? He was so impressed with that feat he did it again the next year in 87 games. Picciolo walked just 25 times in 1720 PAs.

Here's a great page on this topic:

http://www.captainsblog.info/2012/05...average/15300/

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Tabe

It's actually not. Rob Picciolo, believe it or not, once had a season with a LOWER OBP than batting average. Who cares if it was just 14 games? He was so impressed with that feat he did it again the next year in 87 games. Picciolo walked just 25 times in 1720 PAs.

Here's a great page on this topic:

http://www.captainsblog.info/2012/05...average/15300/

How is that mathematically possible, if you start with BA and then add the same number to the numerator and denominator (walks plus hit by pitch, right?) you necessarily come up with a higher number, no?

[howard38]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

How is that mathematically possible, if you start with BA and then add the same number to the numerator and denominator (walks plus hit by pitch, right?) you necessarily come up with a higher number, no?

Sacrifice flies count as plate appearances when calculating OBP.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by howard38

Sacrifice flies count as plate appearances when calculating OBP.

Ah. Thank you.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Tabe

It's actually not. Rob Picciolo, believe it or not, once had a season with a LOWER OBP than batting average. Who cares if it was just 14 games? He was so impressed with that feat he did it again the next year in 87 games. Picciolo walked just 25 times in 1720 PAs.

Here's a great page on this topic:

http://www.captainsblog.info/2012/05...average/15300/

I thought that name rang a bell. The Brewers acquired him in '82 to back up Yount at shortstop.

I have no idea how he was able to stick around as long as he did. I don't remember him having any special defensive skills, and he was deplorable with a bat in his hands. He was a lifetime .234 hitter. His career slash line was, are you ready? .246/.312/.558. Yet somehow he was able to remain in the Majors for 9 seasons. He played in 730 games, and totaled 1,720 plate appearances. I guess he was able to play a lot of defensive positions. But would that explain how somebody with a -1.8 career WAR was able to hang around for nine years?

[Tabe]

Picciolo is the first modern player I've seen that challenges Ray Oyler for worst hitter of all-time. Oyler as a lot worse but he at least walked once in awhile. Oyler was also an elite defender.

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Tabe

Picciolo is the first modern player I've seen that challenges Ray Oyler for worst hitter of all-time. Oyler as a lot worse but he at least walked once in awhile. Oyler was also an elite defender.

Chris,

If we're talking the worst hitter of all-time, we need to include the originator of "the Mendoza line". Mario Mendoza ended his career with a .215 career batting average. As terrible as Picciolo was, he did hit 17 home runs in 1,618 ABs. Mendoza managed a mere 4 in 1,337. Ironic that he end his career with 1,337 at bats. The kids today like to use those numbers to spell the word "leet". There was nothing elite about Mendoza.

Picciolo's extra base hits: 1,628 ABs, 56 doubles, 10 triples, 17 home runs
Mendoza's extra base hits: 1,337 ABs, 33 doubles, 9 triples, 4 home runs

Picciolo's slash line: .246/.312/.558
Mendoza's slash line: .245/.262/.507

Picciolo's career OPS +: 56
Mendoza's career OPS +: 41

If Picciolo was terrible with a career -1.8 WAR, what does that make Mendoza, he of the -2.5 WAR.

Surprisingly, Mendoza had a 4.0 dWAR his career. He played short, third base and second base for Pittsburgh, Texas and Seattle in his 9 year career. Picciolo's dWAR was a 1.9.

Again, the question begs asking. How do Picciolo and Mendoza last 9 years each in the Majors? Mendoza from '74 to '82, Picciolo from '77 to '85.

They're both pretty awful, but only Mendoza's name is brought up when a player threatens to fall below the .200 batting average.

He might just be the worst hitter ever.

[the 'stache]

Ok, I had to run a report. It turns out that Mendoza is almost the worst ever. I ran a report for the modern era (1919 was the end of the dead ball era, so 1920 to current day). Mendoza has the second worst career OPS of non pitchers who have had 1,000 or more at bats. The winner? Luis Gomez, he of the career .500 OPS. His OBP of .261 is better than the other guys. Gomez walked 86 times in his career. But his slugging percentage was downright embarrassing. In 1,251 at bats, Gomez hit 26 doubles, 5 triples and no home runs. His career slugging percentage? .239. I didn't know a percentage could get that low.

Here is the wall of shame:

[sago]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

ichiro hit .350 and had on OBP of .381. That has to be one of the lowest differentials ever. The same year, same team, Olerud and Martinez were higher, at .401 and .423.

Pretty sure it helped that Ichiro was already on base and was a major stealing threat.