Tim Kurkjian and the greatest SS's

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Bill James has an interesting analysis where, as of 2002, he claims Craig Biggio was better than Griffey Jr. I will see if I can find it online. But the essence of it was that he pointed out a lot of categories where Griffey didn't do so well, aside from HR and RBI. Yeah, perhaps like asking other than that Mrs. Lincoln how was the play.

That's so wrong, Peter. Shame on you.

Of course, I have been known to use that one...from time to time. Hey, it's been nearly 150 years now. Once you cross the hundred year mark, I think the "too soon?" question no longer applies.

[the 'stache]

Oh, yeah, my reason for responding, Peter's Summer Stock performance not withstanding...I think Biggio has been underrated by a lot of baseball fans.

His career OPS is only .791, but he's got to be one of the top two or three most versatile members of the 3,000 hit club, if not the most versatile. He played second and catcher primarily, but he also played 363 games, more than two seasons worth of games, in the outfield. And he was very good defensively.

When you break his Hall worthiness down...

3,000 + hits
668 doubles
291 home runs and 414 stolen bases
4 Gold Gloves, 5 Silver Slugger Awards, 2 top 5 MVP finishes as a second baseman.

He's the kind of guy I want on my team. Hustle, power, speed, versatility, and always a dirty uniform. Give me a guy that gives 110% every time.

One thing Biggio and Yount both had in common that most players today could take lessons from-they never half-a__ed it to first base on a ground ball out. They ran. Those guys played under the assumption that they could either beat the throw, or that somebody might double clutch, or not make a clean catch.

Those are the guys I'd build my team around. The Braves had their little fun fest with Glavine, Maddux and Cox, time to put Biggio and Bagwell in together. I've always been super impressed with both those guys.

[the 'stache]

Bill James is likely pointing out stats that suffered in the second half of his career. Because at age 30, I thought Griffey was going to break Hank Aaron's record. His stats at 30 were downright frightening:

.299 AVG, 1,063 runs, 1,742 hits, 320 doubles, 30 triples, 398 home runs, 1,152 RBI, 167 stolen bases, .948 OPS. 7 Silver Sluggers, 10 All Star Games, 10 Gold Gloves and an MVP Award. His home run totals from 1993 forward: 45 in 1993, 40 in 1994, 17 in 1995, 49 in 1996, 56 in 1997, 56 in 1998, 48 in 1999.

He had 3,316 total bases at age 30. If only he could have stayed healthy.

I mean no disrespect to Derek Jeter, who has been a great baseball player for a long time, a player that will be a first ballot Hall of Famer. But Griffey was one of those transcendent players. He was my generation's Willie Mays.

Between 1996 and 1999, 4 seasons, Junior hit .294 with 209 home runs and 567 RBIs. Unreal.

[Peter_Spaeth]

"You have to understand, when I wrote in 1998 that Craig Biggio was one of the five greatest second basemen of all time, people thought I was nuts. Very few people at that time saw him as a special player. I liked that, too—I liked people thinking I was out on a limb about something when I knew I was right. I loved doing a point-by-point summary comparing Craig Biggio to Ken Griffey Jr., and showing Biggio was actually as valuable, in his best seasons, as Griffey. Griffey at that time was generally regarded as the best player in baseball. In 1997 Griffey outhomered Biggio 56-22, in 1998 56-20. But Biggio had a higher batting average, more doubles and triples, more stolen bases with a better stolen base percentage, was hit by pitches an additional 20 times a year and grounded into fewer double plays. He had as many walks and fewer strikeouts. It was pretty obvious that, if you added together all of Biggio's advantages, Biggio was, at a minimum, on the same level."

Here is a link to the actual analysis on Google books.

http://books.google.com/books?id=3uS...riffey&f=false

[the 'stache]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

"You have to understand, when I wrote in 1998 that Craig Biggio was one of the five greatest second basemen of all time, people thought I was nuts. Very few people at that time saw him as a special player. I liked that, too—I liked people thinking I was out on a limb about something when I knew I was right. I loved doing a point-by-point summary comparing Craig Biggio to Ken Griffey Jr., and showing Biggio was actually as valuable, in his best seasons, as Griffey. Griffey at that time was generally regarded as the best player in baseball. In 1997 Griffey outhomered Biggio 56-22, in 1998 56-20. But Biggio had a higher batting average, more doubles and triples, more stolen bases with a better stolen base percentage, was hit by pitches an additional 20 times a year and grounded into fewer double plays. He had as many walks and fewer strikeouts. It was pretty obvious that, if you added together all of Biggio's advantages, Biggio was, at a minimum, on the same level."

Here is a link to the actual analysis on Google books.

http://books.google.com/books?id=3uS...riffey&f=false

Biggio was sneaky good. And one word I love using to describe far too few baseball players is utility. Biggio brought utility to the team. The Brewers have a guy that reminds me a lot of Biggio in Jonathan Lucroy. He's really coming into his own. He's a really good defensive catcher (will probably win the Gold Glove in the NL this season). He's going to hit between 15-20 home runs. Luc's already got 38 doubles, 56 runs and 54 RBI. And he's walked 45 times while striking out only 54 times.

Luc's rookie year, 2011, he hit .265 with 12 HR and 59 RBI
2012 he hit .320 with 12 HR and 58 RBI. Missed more than a month and a half with a broken bone in his hand.
2013 he hit .280 with 18 HR and 82 RBI. He stole 9 bases in 10 tries.
2014 he's hitting .307 with 12 HR and 53 RBI, and an .852 OPS. He catches primarily, plays first base. He can also play third base, but has only done so in spring training.

Biggio was a throwback player. That's the feel I get when Lucroy plays. And I love those kinds of players. They make the game fun. Those are the guys that will do whatever it takes to win.

I think I'll do an analysis of Biggio vs Jeter, too. That sounds interesting to me.