1888 S. F. Hess (N321) card controversy ends....it's FREE, at last it's FREE of TPG

[steve B]

The first "cards" from the 1800's I ever bought was a near set of racehorses - all apparently cut from a banner or album (I forget which, and don't recall if there was an album. )

While I know now that they're not exactly cards I still like them. It's sad that some one cut up a banner or album, but I'm fairly sure it was done a lot closer to when they were issued than when I bought them. Especially since at the time even a sort of beat banner would have been worth way more than the cutouts -I think I paid around $2-3 for the whole batch and the same for a smaller batch of actual cards from a different set of horses.

To me it's always slightly puzzling that the cutouts are less common than the cards, but worth far less. It makes sense going on desirability, but not on ---I need a better word than rarity, but can't think of it just now.

I'm also ok with the cutouts being slabbed, as long as the ID is correct. For my horse cards I'd think "poster cutout" slabbed as "A" would be appropriate if I ever wanted to bother. No point just now, as the slabbing would probably add less value than it would cost.

Steve B

[dstudeba]

So much discussion on a series I collect is great! Sorry I missed this earlier. One of the long discussed problems with grading is that they can make mistakes or judgements that hurt hobbyists who might not be familiar with the issue. That is what the original thread with Ted was about. Ted bought the card pictured without knowing it was different than a usual N321 pack issued card. It is a great vintage piece which he might have bought anyway but he didn't have all the information when he purchased it mainly because SGC slabbed it incorrectly.

As previously mentioned these were brought to the hobby by Terry Knouse years ago and many can be seen on David Rudd's page here.

I wanted to respond specifically to packs regarding his post here:

I think a real problem in the hobby is taking collector words for things. ...

Similar situation seems to have happened here. Original poster said they laid out information they had misinterpreted to a TPG. TPG took the collector's word for it because they are well respected. But in the end nothing was done to confirm anything.

Not condemning SGC or any other TPG. I think the real problem lies in the hobby. Not saying this applies to this scenario, but when people have vested interests in something being designated in such a way, their information is coming from a difference place. You want your card to be a new type / scrap / variation / etc because there's a monetary interest there. TPG's will do their best because they're human and rely on collector knowledge and experience when presented with something new. Not sure what the solution is.

My emphasis was added to the above quote because I applaud you for the disclaimer. In this case this was just about getting things right and hopefully stopping the mistakes that SGC was making with regards to this issue. As discussed in the current market Ted is taking a financial hit by reslabbing this issue. But he wants it right.

As for taking a hobbyists word for something, the TPGs would do well to take Mark Macrae's word for anything. I am sure there is something in cards he doesn't know, but if he doesn't know it you can bet that the TPGs don't know it.

For other hobbyists, myself included, I definitely can see your point about getting other points of view, but not with Mark Macrae.

[packs]

There are always going to be people who know more about something than others. But I don't think anyone is above confirmation of facts. I agree completely with Old Judge on the point that TPGs should only work with verifiable information. Even if a collector feels strongly about an issue, it should be confirmed first by a third party because that is the purpose of third party authentication.

[tedzan]

..


Hey guys,

Mr. J. Smith is now free to breathe again....and, perhaps this card will survive another 126 years.
It now resides in a high quality mylar plastic....as, do many of the cards in my collection. I have a
disdain for the TPGraded practice, as it invariably distracts from the original intent of collecting BB
cards.

So perhaps many of you who participated in this thread are happy now . Just as I certainly am.


T-Rex TED
.

[ZachS]

So am I reading this correctly... you had it graded 3 different times and then you freed it from encapsulation in the end?

[oldjudge]

"Free at last, Free at last, Thank God almighty we are free at last.”

[tedzan]

Zach

I purchased this SF Hess "card" as an SGC graded card. Subsequently, while I was at SGC (Bound Brook, NJ only a 45 minute drive for me)
to have a bunch of cards graded.....Earl had the this Hess "card" re-labelled for me (no charge).

Mark Macrae told me this "card" was mis-identified, so I gave it back to Earl at the National to have it re-labelled again (free of charge).

So, I submitted it to SGC twice for RE-LABELLING (not re-grading).

With all this consternation on this thread regarding this particular "card" being graded, I decided it best to remove it from it's controversial
TPG plastic.

I'm first a collector....and 2nd a dealer. This S. F. Hess "card" fits nicely into my type collection.


T-Rex TED
.

[darkhorse9]

This is a subject that I would almost NEVER get involved in because there are many people FAR more knowledgeable than I and this matter and Ted is one of them.

First off..I am a raw card collector and love it when a card is freed from the confines, but in this case I think that may not have been so wise a decision.

In Ted's hands this card will be properly presented for what it is and what the controversy and debate is. But if Ted ever decides to sell it and once this card is released into the wild and changes hands a couple of times I'm worried that the true origins of the card will become clouded and it might not be properly presented for what it is.

When there's a doubt as to the authenticity of a card, having a TPG actually becomes a good thing.

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by dstudeba

......Ted bought the card pictured without knowing it was different than a usual N321 pack issued card. It is a great vintage piece which he might have bought anyway but he didn't have all the information when he purchased it mainly because SGC slabbed it incorrectly.

As previously mentioned these were brought to the hobby by Terry Knouse years ago and many can be seen on David Rudd's page here.


As for taking a hobbyists word for something, the TPGs would do well to take Mark Macrae's word for anything. I am sure there is something in cards he doesn't know, but if he doesn't know it you can bet that the TPGs don't know it.

For other hobbyists, myself included, I definitely can see your point about getting other points of view, but not with Mark Macrae.

It was great meeting and chatting with you at the National.

Your 1st statement here is quite true......I would have bought it anyway. And, it was acquired at a reasonable price, too.
This N321 "card" fits quite well into my 19th Century type card collection.


Regarding your 2nd statement here....according to David Rudd's site, these "cards" may be unique in the hobby....do you
agree with this ?


Finally, I certainly agree with you that Mark Macrae's knowledge of things in this hobby is vast and virtually impeccable.





TED Z
.

[dstudeba]

Hi Ted,

Excellent meeting and chatting with you also. I have not seen a duplicate N321 paper version to refute David's statement that they could be unique. However as you know they don't come up very often so it is tough to determine. I don't believe there were any duplicates in Terry Knouse's find of 30 or so.

[oaks1912]

Lets try to make this as simple as possible. There are currently three types of N-321 SF Hess Color California League cards that are documented. Up until the early 80’s only one style was documented of these relatively scarce cards. In 1983, Lew Lipset published “The Encyclopedia of Baseball Cards, Volume 1, 19th Century Cards” . THe SF Hess N-321 set was covered on pages 51 & 52 and contains no mention of variation in printing, cut or paper stock. The cards that Lipset illustrated in his book are regular insert cards (Type-1), that is, they contain the SF Hess & Company ad along the bottom border, and the “Copyright 1888” line in red along the bottom border, just inside the frame (Note : I can verify Type 1 examples of Hanley, McCord and H.Smith which do NOT have the “Copyright 1888” line) . They are printed on a sturdy stock of paper... Shortly after Lew’s book was released, I was at a National Convention (either ’83 Chicago or ’84 Parsippany) and found a box of 19th Century cards on a dealer’s table, including several of the N-321 cards. These cards however appeared different. They were all handcut, they did not contain the SF Hess & Company logo along the bottom and they did not include the “Copyright 1888”.... The dealer recognized that these were handcut, and gave me a fair price on the group, which included duplicates.... I went over to the table of friend Dick Dobbins to show him the cards and ask what he thought. Although Dobbins had not seen this group for sale at the National, he did indicate that he had picked up a few of these style cards (Without the ad or copyright) from other sources before and was confident of their authenticity. This and a few follow up discussions with Dick, we decided to refer to these as “Type-2, Advertising sheets cards” At the time few people cared, and even fewer were aware that they existed...... Sometime in the 1990’s, pioneer Bay Area dealer Dennis King offered a group of about 30 / 31 of the N-321 cards to me. His group looked like the regular insert cards, however they were printed on significantly thinner stock of paper. Dennis indicated that these had been acquired years earlier as part of a large 19th / early 20th century paper collection. We could not meet on a price and this group was eventually sold to Terry Knouse. Although I do not have xeroxs of those cards, some colors appeared to be muted, most I recall being handcut and all were on extremely thin paper stock. This variety was referred to as Type -3. To my knowledge only one group of Type 3 cards have ever surfaced. The Type 3 cards would probably be the closest to “Proof cards”, although I would place an asterisk next to the word proof, until more supporting evidence turns up... Several years back, Legendary auctions offered a near set of N-321 Hess cards which included mostly Type 1, and some Type 2 cards. That collection is believed to be from a longtime Northern California collector who was a good friend and contemporary of Dick Dobbins. It is quite possible that the Type 2 cards in the Legendary group, and the Type 2 cards that Dobbins had (Prior to Dobbins death in 1999, he sold me his Hess group) were from the same find. Clearly the first Type is the most desirable, at least in terms of construction and aesthetics. Its at the discretion / judgement of individual collectors as to what they feel is worth the most (if anything) to them.

[Joe_G.]

Thank you Mark, interesting history.

[oldjudge]

Mark--weren't there some of either what you call Type 2 or Type 3 that had some large black letters on their obverse? Am I not remembering correctly, or if I am remembering correctly, what were they? Are they the ones trimmed off the poster (Type 2)?

Best--Jay

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by oaks1912

Lets try to make this as simple as possible. There are currently three types of N-321 SF Hess Color California League cards that are documented. Up until the early 80’s only one style was documented of these relatively scarce cards. In 1983, Lew Lipset published “The Encyclopedia of Baseball Cards, Volume 1, 19th Century Cards” . THe SF Hess N-321 set was covered on pages 51 & 52 and contains no mention of variation in printing, cut or paper stock. The cards that Lipset illustrated in his book are regular insert cards (Type-1), that is, they contain the SF Hess & Company ad along the bottom border, and the “Copyright 1888” line in red along the bottom border, just inside the frame (Note : I can verify Type 1 examples of Hanley, McCord and H.Smith which do NOT have the “Copyright 1888” line) . They are printed on a sturdy stock of paper... Shortly after Lew’s book was released, I was at a National Convention (either ’83 Chicago or ’84 Parsippany) and found a box of 19th Century cards on a dealer’s table, including several of the N-321 cards. These cards however appeared different. They were all handcut, they did not contain the SF Hess & Company logo along the bottom and they did not include the “Copyright 1888”.... The dealer recognized that these were handcut, and gave me a fair price on the group, which included duplicates.... I went over to the table of friend Dick Dobbins to show him the cards and ask what he thought. Although Dobbins had not seen this group for sale at the National, he did indicate that he had picked up a few of these style cards (Without the ad or copyright) from other sources before and was confident of their authenticity. This and a few follow up discussions with Dick, we decided to refer to these as “Type-2, Advertising sheets cards” At the time few people cared, and even fewer were aware that they existed...... Sometime in the 1990’s, pioneer Bay Area dealer Dennis King offered a group of about 30 / 31 of the N-321 cards to me. His group looked like the regular insert cards, however they were printed on significantly thinner stock of paper. Dennis indicated that these had been acquired years earlier as part of a large 19th / early 20th century paper collection. We could not meet on a price and this group was eventually sold to Terry Knouse. Although I do not have xeroxs of those cards, some colors appeared to be muted, most I recall being handcut and all were on extremely thin paper stock. This variety was referred to as Type -3. To my knowledge only one group of Type 3 cards have ever surfaced. The Type 3 cards would probably be the closest to “Proof cards”, although I would place an asterisk next to the word proof, until more supporting evidence turns up... Several years back, Legendary auctions offered a near set of N-321 Hess cards which included mostly Type 1, and some Type 2 cards. That collection is believed to be from a longtime Northern California collector who was a good friend and contemporary of Dick Dobbins. It is quite possible that the Type 2 cards in the Legendary group, and the Type 2 cards that Dobbins had (Prior to Dobbins death in 1999, he sold me his Hess group) were from the same find. Clearly the first Type is the most desirable, at least in terms of construction and aesthetics. Its at the discretion / judgement of individual collectors as to what they feel is worth the most (if anything) to them.

Great stuff......very informative; and, well worth repeating it here.

Thanks,


T-Rex TED
.

[dstudeba]

Thanks Mark, love to have knowledge dropped on me.